Episode 36. Finland and the US: Friends and Allies, a conversation with General Jarmo Lindberg and Ambassador Bruce Oreck

Episode Transcript:

Amb. McCarthy: [00:00:13] Our podcast brings together senior US diplomats and senior US military leaders in conversations about their partnership to advance American interests overseas. My name is Ambassador Deborah McCarthy and I'm the producer and host of the series Today on the General and the Ambassador. We will talk about the strong relationship between Finland and the United States. This is a special podcast recorded on location in Helsinki, Finland, and produced in cooperation with the Finnish Institute of International Affairs. I wish to thank the Institute and its director, Mika Aaltola, for this opportunity. I also want to thank my colleagues Charlie Salonius Pasternak and Marie Louise Hinsberg, for their assistance in pulling the event together. Our guests today are General Jarmo Lindberg, the former chief of defence of Finland from 2014 to 2019, and Ambassador Bruce Oreck, who served as a US ambassador to Finland from 2009 to 2015. General Lindberg and Ambassador Oreck work closely together during some important years of global and regional security challenges, most particularly the Russian occupation of Crimea and its invasion of eastern Ukraine this past summer. General Lindberg was awarded the Legion of Merit from General Dunford, the then chairman of the Joint Chiefs. It is the highest military award the United States presents to a foreign leader. Gentlemen, thank you for joining the General Ambassador podcast and a warm welcome. Thank you, Bruce. I want to start with you, General. Congratulations on the award. I understand that this impressive ceremony took place at Myer-henderson Hall in Virginia. Can you tell us a little bit about the event and what it meant for you?

Gen. Lindberg: [00:01:55] Well, yes, the the event was was extremely well organized. Obviously beautiful weather looking down the Capitol Hill and all the honor guards from all the services were there. Hundreds of soldiers, General Dunford. We had a short discussion with General Dunford and Mrs. Dunford and the Finnish ambassador to the United States, Kristi Kauppi, before we went outside. And then the ceremony started with the speeches and music. And and then I was awarded the medal and had the full cannon, the full salute. Excellent. And you could see the Washington Monument and the Capitol Hill behind the smoke of the guns. And the guns were shooting and the bands were playing. So obviously that was extremely memorable. And when I came back to Finland, I said to my wife that, darling, you should have been there.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:03:02] Well, Ambassador, you helped build the strong ties between the United States and Finland and decided after you left government service to live in Helsinki part of the year. Did you celebrate with the General once he came back from the award ceremony, or are you planning to celebrate?

Amb. Oreck: [00:03:16] Not yet, but I'm sure we'll find a good excuse to to to do something. Actually, this has nothing to do with politics, but everything to do with the friendship and shared values and interests is I have worked with the general before helping fix up his cottage, and apparently I'm about to be reassigned to do the task for a new home. So we both like doing that sort of work.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:03:39] That'll be part of the celebration.

Amb. Oreck: [00:03:41] You earn your celebratory beer that way.

Gen. Lindberg: [00:03:44] And Bruce has to bring his own gloves.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:03:48] Well, Finland is situated in a unique part of the world. It has three important neighbors, Norway to the north, Sweden to the northwest and Russia to the east. The country stretches from the Arctic to the Baltic Sea. It is a militarily non-allied country which maintains its own defense capability while cooperating with partners, including the United States. Finland and the United States have deepened their bilateral security relationship over the years. Finland has relied on F-18s for its air force, and in 2012, it was the first country to purchase joint air to surface standoff missiles from the United States. In 2016, both countries signed a statement of intent to broaden consultations and cooperation. In May 2018, Finland, the United States and Sweden signed a trilateral letter for joint planning and the conduct of military exercises. Gentlemen, can you talk about your work together to build this strong relationship.

Gen. Lindberg: [00:04:45] From the, from the Finnish military side? And when we were looking at the time frame, when when when I was in the office in Brussels, in the office, actually, I was serving in three different roles. I was I was first the air chief. So so what we did with Bruce was very air specific, obviously, at that time. Then I was the assistant chief of staff for logistics and armaments, so that broadened the scope in the armaments cooperation. Procurement releases, disclosure policy with with the United States. And eventually then then I finished up as the chief of chief of defense. But still, it stays when we're in the uniformed military, it stays pretty much on on a more technical day to day business because the defense command doesn't do defense policy. We have to be very specific here. So it's the Ministry of Defense that does the defense policy. So, so, so the US ambassador, if he is dealing and he is dealing with defense policy matters, then he deals with the Ministry of Defense.

Amb. Oreck: [00:05:56] The thing that's really nice in Finland is that it is a country which its fundamental structure is so cooperative. There's a great deal of communication. And so I think as as the general points out, my primary responsibility was sort of on the political side after defense and all of that. Yet on a continuous basis, there was a lot of time spent with the military officers in general. I mean, not the general, but generally with officers. And part of that is that in the role of the ambassador, when you're reporting back to DC, they sort of tell me about these people who are, you know, what do you think? And because obviously when Army is out dealing with his counterparts in the military in the US, they make their own assessment. But the political side has to sort of confirm that. And so in Finland it's it's extremely easy and effective to to do both to both deal with policy from the political side, but also be able to sort of take the measure of the of the officers on a 1 to 1 basis so that you can inform the State Department in that way.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:07:13] Well, Finland is not a member of NATO by choice. However, cooperation with NATO is a very important part of Finnish defense policy. General, can you share with our audience why Finland prefers to cooperate with NATO rather than join the organization?

Gen. Lindberg: [00:07:29] Well, that has been obviously debated a lot here in Finland throughout the years. And and there is one obvious main reason that the support for NATO is still is is fairly low among the population, around 25% plus or minus a couple of percent depending on the year and depending on the on the poll, I don't start guessing why it's still on on on that level. But if we then go to the cooperation. So we were there when the Partnership for Peace program was initiated in 1994. So so we were there from the start. So when when nations that were not members of NATO were able to join the NATO response force program, we were there. And then finally in in Wales, 2014, September 2014, we were among the small group, five nations that were selected to be the Enhanced Opportunity Partners. So I would say that there is a very logical sequence of of decisions in Finland to keep the close cooperation with NATO and also enhance the close cooperation with NATO. And and that's how it is now. And and I would say that it's on a on an extremely good level.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:08:59] And bassador, How did non-NATO membership affect, if at all, US Finnish defence cooperation during your time as ambassador?

Amb. Oreck: [00:09:09] Part of my job was to to make the pilgrimage to the political side on a regular basis and advocate for native membership, and that I was not the first ambassador to do that, and I probably won't be the last ambassador to do that. But the fact that Finland is such a powerfully aligned NATO partner, they have such we have such cooperation and clear shared values that really from a from a day to day operational standpoint, it doesn't hold back the relationship in any manner. Obviously there are aspects where partnership versus membership, there are different different things that happen, but it was I'm probably going to get in trouble for saying this, but I often heard in the in the hall the political halls back in Washington that they wish that NATO members would behave as as in such a committed and professional fashion as Finland did, as a partner. You know, So so there was never an end of compliments on from Washington, from how not only from how the Finns thought, how they trained, how they performed their reliability. And so, you know, it was it was all positive.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:10:35] It was a close relationship.In early 2014, Russia annexed annexed a part of Ukraine, the Crimean peninsula, and sent forces, proxy forces to occupy the eastern parts of that country. Gentlemen, can you walk us through the reaction here in Finland and how you worked together in coordinating or consulting on Finnish and US responses to Russia's actions?

Gen. Lindberg: [00:10:57] From from my part, actually, I was at that time the the assistant chief of staff for logistics and armaments. So I was not in the political or policy level discussions. And I would say that that the most visible and concrete thing probably was the, the multilateral response for sanctions in the EU and still is so so it is it is the EU led sanctions. But then parallel to that, it was the US led sanctions and the coordination of of the US and and EU sanctions. And Finland is fully with the EU, with with the EU sanctions still in this in this matter. And then the actions were coordinated with with the the kind of the bunch of sanctions that that the United States came up with and still has the sanctions.

Amb. Oreck: [00:11:55] Yeah, the sanctions was a really difficult problem because it's a tool that I guess the intention is that it's a scalpel, but it ends up being a mallet, it ends up being a hammer and it and therefore it's hugely imprecise. And it has it has consequences that were never intended. And so as Jarmo points out, this this wasn't so much the any of the military piece. It was the on the economic side, it was very difficult to keep Treasury in Washington and State Department clear as to, you know, if you do this, this other thing happens. And so therefore, please evaluate the importance of this thing because the consequence is far worse than the benefit. And that was a that was a time consuming process.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:12:46] Well, Finland shares a 900 mile border and a very long history with Russia. Over the centuries. By one count, Finland has fought 33 wars with Russia. When the Soviet Union invaded Finland in 1939, Finnish forces repelled their attacks under brutal conditions in the Winter War and maintain the country's independence. Finland also fought a second war with the Soviet Union soon thereafter. Again, Finland retained its independence. Today, both countries maintain a practical relationship. Their regular meetings between presidents and Finland also hosted the summit between President Trump and President Putin in 2018. General, can you give us a sense of the relationship between Finland and Russia, particularly on defense and border management?

Gen. Lindberg: [00:13:35] To put this into perspective? So during the Cold War, we were procuring our defense equipment about the third locally from from the national industry, one third from from west and one third from the Soviet Union. And it was sort of a barter trade with with the Soviet Union. And and at that time, if there was any cooperation on the military side, it was pretty much the training to use the equipment that we had procured. So we didn't have any exercises. We didn't train together. I'm a pretty good example myself because I'm a MiG pilot. So I flew MiG 21 jet fighters, Soviet jet fighters for 11.5 years. And I did my last I was a demo pilot. So I flew in the air show and I flew flew my last demo on the on the Soviet Air Force day 16th of August, 1991, in Kubinka Air Base in Moscow. Next week there was the coup and General Secretary Gorbachev was put on house arrest on his dacha on the Black Sea coast and the base where we were the previous week. There were two motor rifle brigades and we were wondering that, Boy, it was a really good timing to fly back to Finland, on, on, on, on on Friday. And actually the story doesn't end here. So I'm also a good example, a concrete example of of the change when Soviet Union collapsed and we made the decision to procure the the F-18 jet fighters.

Gen. Lindberg: [00:15:21] So I was on among the first pilots to be trained in the United States. So so three and a half years later that I had been flying a MiG over Moscow. I was flying Navy jets over the Pacific with Marines and Navy fighter pilots. So so that gives you the perspective of also how how dramatic the the change was after the the collapse of the Soviet Union during Russia time. We have kept a pragmatic relationship with with Russia. And we have stated that that it's good to keep on on the dialogue so so that that we know what the neighbors think and we have an idea that that how they would behave. And if something something happens. So so that is a very pragmatic relationship. I won't go to the details with the with the border control, but the border control has been working well. There was a short period in the spring of 2015 where we had a couple of thousand people coming across the border from from Russia. And that that caused obviously some some concern. But now for several years, the border is very tight from both sides.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:16:45] When best I want to ask you in that respect, after that 2014 invasion of Crimea, US and Russian direct talks and contacts were cut way back. How did Finland's relationship with Russia help the United States understand what was going on inside of Russia?

Amb. Oreck: [00:17:03] I think that the generals categorizing, categorizing the relationship with Finnish Russian relationship as pragmatic is really the best way to to see it. And. So they have a long. The long, long relationship here, that pragmatism is based on experience. It's based on a lot of sort of, you know, that that gut social understanding of that one's not that doesn't that's not going to work with the Russians, but this one might. And you don't gain that knowledge by sitting in an office as a policy expert in Washington. I'm sorry. I don't care how clever you are. You know, you have to be on the ground. You have to experience it. And there's no way for any foreign government to to, you know, to to immediately gain. You can't take a pill to gain the the experience of centuries of relationship. And so Finland has an immense value in our understanding of of, you know, a lot of the practicalities. And how do you deal with it? When do when when do you let them sort of just have their tantrum and when do you say, no, no, no, no, you crossed the line. That one didn't. That one doesn't work? One of my frustrations was that Finland's knowledge is profound and deep. And I don't think that from a political side, we took advantage of that enough. Right. There's too much of that sort of Washington think where we know when they don't.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:18:36] Yes, we know.

Amb. Oreck: [00:18:37] Yeah. Just just for the podcast. Deborah is nodding her head like she's been here a few times.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:18:43] Yes, I've seen it on both sides in Washington and out in the field.

Amb. Oreck: [00:18:46] Frustration does happen both ways. But in this in this question, you know, it was clearly.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:18:52] I recall when I was in Lithuania, we were warned about disinformation early on that had been going on for a while, that it was accelerating. And it was very hard to convince Washington to wake up to that. Well, since 2014, Russia has expanded its use of hybrid tactics, including what I just mentioned, disinformation, economic pressure, influence peddling. Finland has a broad, comprehensive security policy that makes the country more resilient to these kinds of threats. Jarmo, Can you explain what are the three strongest aspects of Finland's security policy? And give us some examples, if you can, where the country has taken action to counter some of these threats?

Gen. Lindberg: [00:19:40] It's a concept that we we used it during the Cold War, but then it was called total defense. And the the the idea was that, okay, after Second World War when we mobilized a huge Army, Navy, Air force, then if something like that would happen again, then how other parts of the society could help the defense forces to mobilize and and have have the total effect. But that concept has been changed. It has evolved into this comprehensive security concept where now the ministries and the Ministry of Defense and the Defense Forces play their role in in in a more comprehensive perspective of defending the society. And I think that that that we have been also lucky in that that that when the Cold War went away we didn't put the total defense concept away. We turned it around. And now we have a coordinated action amongst the different government agencies and the ministries to respond if something happens which goes across the different lines of responsibilities of different ministries. And this is the key in the whole whole concept. So, so I would say that if you're talking about hybrid warfare, the high level of education works well. It's hard to tell you lies when you know better. That's what we're talking about when we're talking about hybrid warfare. Is is the the get confusion and to delay decision making and in in a way that you affect simultaneously in in in different parts of of different organizations.

Amb. Oreck: [00:21:35] Let me jump in on that one because I think that Jarmo makes two points that are really relevant in America. One is this issue of cooperation that the various agencies and there are stumbling, stumbling blocks, but there's a great deal of transparency between the different agencies who are tasked to deal with different aspects of civil and military society here. And so this sort of the stovepiping problem is much less, especially when we're talking about this hybrid, the cyber stuff. It it's it's much harder because there is this you know, you can sort of say, you know, Bob, are you getting that? No, that's not right. You know where we see that in the US there's a great deal of despite efforts to get away from that, it's still very, very stovepiped. And so a great deal of lessons from how it works in Finland. That's one. And the other point that Jarmo makes is, is that Finland has. Been phenomenally successful. Absolutely world leader in this. The question of education and their focus, their commitment socially, financially to highly educated general population, which makes it much harder, you know, to tell someone the world is flat. When you know better, it's a harder thing to do. The challenge in the US, of course, is the education system has been under assault for lots of different reasons and our population is not generally as educated as it should be, could be. And therefore it's easier to to pass off a lie as the truth. And this is a very dangerous thing because in the end, it's not about technology ultimately. I mean, technology, everyone's got it. It's about, do you believe the lie? And if you.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:23:24] And as you said, it's about education.

Amb. Oreck: [00:23:26] So this is this you know, these are these are deeply embedded in the Finnish system here. So it doesn't mean you can snap your fingers and deploy it in some other country. The US or somewhere else. But the lesson is really an important one.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:23:39] Finland has also deepened its defence ties with its Nordic neighbours, particularly Sweden. Jarmo Can you explain the importance of this aspect of Finnish defence policy and how it enhances regional capabilities, especially on air defence?

Gen. Lindberg: [00:23:54] Well, we have we have done a cooperation with with Sweden for, for a long time. But I do have to say that during the recent years we have reached levels that that we have never achieved before. We have had very strong political guidance from from the political leadership, from both nations. And also we have been given we, the military, have been given fairly free hands to to do the the organizing and the technical part of the of the cooperation. And there has been good motivation from from both nations. So we are now in a situation where where we regularly we train together, we we exercise together in both countries. We send forces to to the main exercises of of both countries. And from the air side that you mentioned, we have done cross-border exercises for, I don't know, almost a decade now where we can cross the borders of Finland, Norway and Sweden. So Norway is also regularly participating in this cross-border exercise. So and we have delegated down to a squadron level. So so the flight planners in the fighter squadrons can deal across the borders themselves. And we kind of took the borders away. And in the area you can cross the borders easily. So what we can do now is that we can pull out the the fighter units from from different bases, from different nations. And we can say that, okay, today we fight over Norway and we have Swedish fighter controllers who are controlling the fight and everybody takes off and breathes at their own location, fight in the air, go back and then debrief and analyze it back home. And what it gives us, it gives us more jets in the air. It gives us better scenarios, better training and and what is extremely important? Interoperability. You are really sure that that that your equipment works together, your your processes, your rules, regulations all are compatible. And it's not just technical interoperability. This is a lot broader scope here that we have already achieved.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:26:16] Bruce, I wanted to ask you in that respect, the US often meets with all three countries together. We've had a tendency mentioning Washington to put all three together for meetings and so forth. Do you think that's a useful mechanism, particularly on on on defense issues?

Amb. Oreck: [00:26:32] Obviously, getting the joint meetings is always a is is always a good thing. There's not anything bad about it per se, as long as you do remember that these are distinct countries with their own distinct policies, their own distinct borders. There's simply no confusing the fact that, you know, Finland has, I guess, what the longest border in Europe with with Russia and Sweden has no border with Russia. Therefore, the the the policies are going to be different and the execution plans are going to be different. And and so, as Jarmo points out, being able to operate inter operate between Norway, Sweden, Finland, critically important to the US, needs to understand that as a resource that they can do it. But they have to remember that these countries are independent and they each have their own specific policy priorities and security priorities. And again, this is a challenge in Washington. There's a there's a sense because the countries aren't large, to just sort of, well, let's just group them together. Well, it's easy to say it's the Nordics. Well, no, you know, you.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:27:40] I'm nodding on that.

Amb. Oreck: [00:27:44] Try that in Texas. Oh, you're just from. No, I'm from Austin. I'm from Dallas. You know, I mean, it's the way it is, right? There's there's some truth, but there's a lot of differentiation.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:27:52] Well, last question, gentlemen. What are the major disconnects between Finland and the US on defense policy? You were both on the inside in key meetings over the years. What should the US pay attention to in its relationship with Finland and what should Finland be attentive to?

Gen. Lindberg: [00:28:11] Well, you as obviously has global commitments and the perspective is the global perspective. And it also looks like the development is more from the multilateral organizations into bilateral deals between different nations and their leaders. Finland being a being in this area has regional and more local interest. Also, being a full member of EU may mean means that in the EU context and there is a European wide interest and European wide decision making and from from from the Finnish perspective, obviously we would like the United States to see the importance of the region and and to also keep committed into the security situation and and also in a in a in a way, when you're when we're talking about the importance of different regions, global global regions, so that the United States doesn't forget the importance of Europe and also, from our perspective, the high north and the Arctic areas.

Amb. Oreck: [00:29:42] Well, I'm going to let me narrow that down a little bit. And that's not to discount the the importance of Europe or the US's relationship with Europe, which is obviously very important and very different. He you know, he uses the term the high North, and there's sometimes a tendency to think too short term. The role of the High North in the years ahead is going to be amplified because climate change means we're going to be looking at a hugely different pattern of both everything from transportation and civilian transportation and military. The opening of the Arctic, the the there's going to be a displacement of populations across the globe. They're going to move north because that's the only area where the planet is going to be habitable. And this is the education question. You can you know, the facts are the facts here. And and so the role of countries in the high north and that stretches from Canada to in terms of western Canada to Finland, it's going to change dramatically. And Finland remains forever, you know, bordered on on Russia. And that's there's going to be they're going to be different tensions. They're going to be different challenges, different opportunities. But but the role of the high North is going to shift around the globe. And if there's long term thinking, then the US will will sort of begin to think that way. And I hope hopefully Finland will also be willing to step up and say, we see that our role in this conversation on the High North is much, much bigger than just Finland and take and take a leadership role there.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:31:24] Well, thank you, Jarmo. Thank you, Bruce. Thank you for an excellent conversation. I do hope you go out and celebrate your award, General, and do it the proper way. Thank you. Thank you very much. My pleasure. The program, the General and the Ambassador is a project of the American Academy of Diplomacy and the Una Chapman Cox Foundation. You can find us on all podcast sites. We urge listeners to send us feedback and suggestions for future episodes. You can reach us at General.Ambassador.podcast@gmail.com. And our website is GeneralAmbassadorPodcast.Org. Thank you so much for listening.