Episode 54. Power and Presence: The US & the Arctic with Admiral James Foggo and Ambassador (and SECNAV) Kenneth Braithwait‪e‬

Episode Transcript:

Amb. McCarthy: [00:00:11] From the American Academy of Diplomacy. This is the General and the Ambassador. Our podcast brings together senior U.S diplomats and senior U.S military leaders to talk about their partnerships in facing a major international crisis or a challenge affecting U.S national security. I'm Ambassador Deborah McCarthy, the producer and host of the series. Today we will focus on US interests in the Arctic and our security relationship with Norway. We have some very special guests, so special that this podcast could have been called the Admiral and the Admiral. For today, we have former Secretary of the Navy Kenneth Braithwaite. With him is Admiral Jamie Foggo, the former commander of US Naval Forces, Europe and Africa. Secretary Braithwaite served as Secretary of the Navy until January 2021, just prior he served as the US Ambassador to Norway. In both active duty and the Navy, Reserve Secretary Braithwaite held a number of key positions, including deploying in Operation Iraqi Freedom as director of communications for the Task Force Commander and for the US Ambassador in Pakistan and Vice Chief of Information. Admiral Foggo served as a commander of US Naval forces, Europe and Africa and as Commander of Allied Forces Joint Force Command until 2020.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:01:34] During his 39 year career, he served in a number of positions, including as Commander of the USS Oklahoma, NATO task Force, Commander in Joint Task Force, Unified Protector in Libya, Executive Officer to the Supreme Allied Commander, Europe and Director of Navy Staff. He also has been a fellow podcast producer leading the excellent podcast Beyond the Horizon, while he was Commander of US Naval Forces Europe and Africa. Secretary, Ambassador and Admiral Braithwaite and Admiral Foggo. Welcome to the General and the Ambassador. I'm particularly pleased to welcome such close friends and colleagues on the programme. Today we will talk about the close partnership between the United States and Norway, as well as the growing importance of the Arctic to US national security. But before we start, I wanted to give our listeners a sense of your long relationship. Mr. Secretary, you were in the class of 84 at the Naval Academy and Admiral Foggo, you were in the class of 81. You have visited each other in your various postings. How did the relationship between you help you be better leaders?

Adm. Foggo: [00:02:45] Deborah and Mr. Ambassador, Mr. Secretary. Thank you so much for the opportunity today. He came in the class of 1984. In his plebe year, that's what we call a first year students. I was in my last year as a senior or a firstie. And we take great pride in the three year difference between these classes of all sets of four year students at the Naval Academy in leading that new class to be our release to take over the leadership position, the mantle of leadership, not just at the Naval Academy, but out in the fleet and in civil society. So there's a bond that forms between you and you're proud of the fact and I'm certainly proud that I think the ambassador is the only one I know who has achieved the rank of admiral in the United States Navy, become an ambassador for the United States of America and then come back to serve again as our secretary of the Navy. You know, in hockey, we call that a hat trick. So I couldn't be more proud of that young man that arrived at Annapolis in 1984.

Amb. Braithwaite: [00:03:51] When you're a freshman at any institution, you always know those seniors that stand out. Jamie Foggo, if you've never met him in person, is a very tall, a very domineering but a very humble, kind, polite and gentle soul. And so he was very easy for us as plebes to recognize and magnetic in his leadership abilities. But I have to say that that transcended the entire class, mostly the entire class of 1981. The thing that I think is most important in that is the trust that's developed. So I knew from the very beginning that Admiral Foggo was somebody that I could trust in, somebody that I knew had my best interests so very easy When I became a US ambassador, having known Jamie his reputation across the fleet of what an individual was as a leader, an inspirational leader, very easy.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:04:37] Well, I wanted to move on to the following, which is our discussion of the Arctic the United States, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Russia, Canada, Denmark and Iceland are the eight countries containing land in the Arctic Circle. It is a unique region and a growing frontier for our military and our diplomats. Warming temperatures and melting ice are opening up access to sea routes and natural resources, including oil and gas. On the diplomatic side, the State Department has a special coordinator covering the area, and the State Department represents US government on what is known as the Arctic Council. On the military side, we have an increasing footprint in the region. The Department of Defense issued an Arctic strategy in 2019. Norway is a close partner of the US. It's a member of the Arctic Council as well as a member of NATO. In 2019, Norway also hosted one of the largest NATO exercises, Trident Juncture, involving 31 countries and 50,000 participants. So, Mr. Secretary, can you describe how our bilateral security partnership with Norway evolve? When you were the US ambassador to Norway, when.

Amb. Braithwaite: [00:05:51] Was asked if I would consider or would like to be considered to be the US ambassador to Norway, it was an opportunity of immense interest to me because of the Arctic. The Arctic, as you know, is the smallest ocean in the world. However, it connects 75% of the population of the world and its importance as it becomes more navigable, 365 becomes even more important to all of those people for the security that has always been maintained in the Arctic. Of course, with great power competition and with the resources that are there in the Arctic, there's a lot of interest in that body of water. During my time in Norway, I worked very hard with the Norwegians who always understood the importance of the Arctic to embrace that approach and to kind of bring that home to the United States. I mean, if you were to ask most people in the United States and you know this, if the United States is one of the Arctic nations, most people don't think of the United States as an Arctic nation. You know, the lower 48 don't touch the Arctic Circle. But thankfully for Alaska and our naval relationship in the Arctic, we've been there for a very long time and we will continue to be there be. Because of that very essence of providing security. We are the only nation in the world that has the ability to ensure freedom of navigation in the Arctic.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:07:13] Well, Admiral Foggo, can you tell us a little bit more about the significance of that exercise, Trident Juncture, as well as the other naval exercise we have conducted and continue to conduct in the region?

Adm. Foggo: [00:07:26] I want to go back to my first trip to the Arctic and in fact, to the North Pole as kind of a primer before I talk about the importance of Trident Juncture. I'm a submariner. I've fought in the third Battle of the Atlantic, the Cold War. Not a shot was fired, cost imposing strategy and it brought down the Soviet Union. So we trained for the better part of six months on USS Sea Devil to get up under the ice. We took ice pilots with us, persons who were specialized in navigating these very tight corridors around the ice. And I got to tell you, it was cool. No pun intended. We surfaced at the pole. I got a chance to walk out there where many Americans will never have the opportunity. It was surreal to me. I had an opportunity to go back during my command tour of USS Oklahoma City. I was CEO of a nuclear powered submarine, and we went up to do an exercise in 2001. So that's a 15 to 16 year hiatus between the two. Difference between the two submarines is Sea Devil was purpose built for the Cold War and going under the ice. Oklahoma City was not as hardened or as capable, so we had to be careful when we came up and we would come up in open areas called Polynyas. It's a body of water that forms when the ice melts. So what I noticed in 2000 is the ice was melting. The other thing I noticed and I was very disappointed in is there were a lot of plastics north of the Arctic Circle, and you wonder how that gets there. And so I really think there is something to this issue of the environment and climate change and how much we've got to protect it.

Adm. Foggo: [00:08:58] And that's not just for the navies of the world or the maritime forces of the world, but also for our diplomats. It's tough to communicate up there. It's a tough environment to operate in, but you have to train where you could potentially fight in order to deter. So we always in the Navy or in the joint force want to fight to win, but we want to win without fighting. That's what deterrence is all about. And so this is where Trident Juncture came in from 2001 until my time in 2018 with Trident Juncture, that was another 17 year hiatus. Trident Juncture was the largest exercise that NATO has ever conducted since the end of the Cold War. 50,000 soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines, 18,500 Americans, about 8500 Marines. The Iwo Jima Strike Group, big expeditionary vessel with helicopters and Marines all over it. The Harry S Truman Strike Group, one of our nuclear powered aircraft carriers, first time sheet operated up there. Anybody on a carrier that operated up there in about 20 years. And so it was very, very important that we did this right. It was called an Article five exercise. And for those listeners who may not be familiar with the NATO charter, that means we exercise on something that looks like an attack on one of the 30 NATO allies and everybody comes to their defense. That article has only ever been used in 72 years once. And that was the attack on America in 9/11. And NATO came to our defense against al Qaeda in Afghanistan. So we wanted to show Europe and the Norwegians that we were there for them. 

Adm. Foggo: [00:10:32] We went all out. Now, in order to do that, in a country like Norway, a country of Vikings, or Vikings as they say, a country that's very concerned about its environment, we turn to our diplomats. You know, the Norwegians built about 40 temporary basis to support all these troops and all this equipment. We moved seven equivalent brigades in about 30 days. But it was Ambassador Braithwaite who set the table for our arrival with the Norwegians. Later on, the Chief of Defense of Norway, Admiral Bruun-Hanssen, Haakon Bruun-Hanssen, great guy. He came to my headquarters and he said, Hey, this gentleman, you know, Ambassador Braithwaite, is a true diplomat, a strategic communicator. You know, once he was done flying airplanes, he went into public affairs. He knows how to communicate. But most importantly, he is a naval officer who understands the importance of the maritime. And we are, after all, a maritime nation. It's a peninsula surrounded by water. You know, Vikings don't travel around in tanks or if you watch the Super Bowl, electric cars, they travel in ships. So the Navy is important. And Ambassador Braithwaite brought that message to the Norwegian people. Last thing I want to say is the Norwegians have this very interesting concept for defense. It's called the Total Defence Concept. And during the Cold War, after they had done their initial military service, you could go out and be a hotelier, a taxi driver, you could be an air traffic controller, but once the nation was doing an exercise, everybody kind of put on the uniform again and they all bonded together in a team of teams.

Adm. Foggo: [00:12:04] Well, they didn't wear their uniforms, but every Norwegian was out there rooting for us and helping us. You know, if you had to do something like this in any nation of the NATO alliance, you know, I'd want to go back to Norway because it was wonderful and they helped us out. Now, the Total Defence Concept goes from the king all the way down to the deck plate to the stevedores, the guys on the pier that take the cargo off the ships and move it around. King Harald actually came out and spent a day with us. He's in his 80 seconds when he was a young man and the family was exiled, his father refused to collaborate with Hitler. They came to the United States. He lived in Blair House under Roosevelt's era, and he had met the president. So for him to come out was a privilege for me historically and to take him around. And he was with us all day at the tender age of 80, he put on his uniform. He's a graduate of the military academy. He went to the field. And what I found about him was he was the people's king. He wanted to go and talk to the conscripted soldiers in the field, men and women who were out there in a pretty cold environment. People asked us, why are you doing this in October and November? And once again said, you have to train like you're going to fight. It's going to be cold and we've got to acclimatize to that.

Adm. Foggo: [00:13:17] The crown prince, his son, who's a Naval Academy graduate, came. He decided that he was going to stay in a tent in the middle of Norway and then fly a helicopter out to the USS Iwo Jima. Now, this Total Defense Concept goes a long way with the royal family. There was bad weather. He couldn't go. So they woke the crown prince up in the middle of the night and said, you have a choice. You can sleep in or you can get in a car. We'll drive you to the Port of Trondheim and they'll fly you to the Iwo Jima at about 3:00 in the morning. He chose to drive and go to the Iwo Jima, and he didn't get any sleep. Been up the entire time the prime minister came. Prime Minister Erna Solberg. She is one tough lady. She rode around in a leopard tank with me for the better part of a half a day. It was unbelievable. If I was Will Ferrell, I'd be a little afraid of poking Norway for their cars based on that commercial she did in response. And the ambassador told me about that. The deputy prime minister came. He had this I've got my Norwegian sweater on today. He was wearing a beautiful Norwegian sweater knitted and the Russians poked fun at him for that during the exercise. And he pushed back and said, I don't care what you say. My mother knitted this. You know, it's kind of this Viking spirit. And lastly, Jens Stoltenberg, who was the Secretary General of NATO, a ten year prime minister of Norway, came and beamed with pride throughout this exercise.

Adm. Foggo: [00:14:34] So it was a huge success. Finally, on his way home. King Harald and I were sitting in this airport. We call it an A-Pod, a terminal where you're going to fly in, fly out military in Trondheim, a Royal Marine walked in and he said to the king, Your Majesty, we were unable to celebrate the Royal Marines birthday at sea on board USS Iwo Jima. And of course, I'm sitting there and going, well, why was that? Well, in order to celebrate, you have to have a little toddy of rum. We're a dry fleet, so rather boring. The CO wouldn't let him open up a bottle of rum on the ship, so they delayed the birthday celebration and asked the King if he would be the presiding officer for a parade in a small building and a shot of rum. He jumped up. He was ready to go. You know, that was a very moving moment, something that was spontaneous. And the King stayed and made a big difference. But, you know, this brought together the camaraderie of the NATO team, made a big impact, not just on NATO, but also on Norway. And it was, I think, a big boon for the alliance and the gentleman sitting on the other side of the earphone and the camera made it all happen from the standpoint of his efforts at diplomacy. And I'll never forget that and thank him for that.

Amb. Braithwaite: [00:15:48] Well, once again, Deborah, the Admiral's being humble. He was the strategic and tactical commander of 50,000 allied troops. Again, as he mentioned, the largest NATO exercise since the end of the Cold War. You know, to bring the Harry s Truman Strike Group, the Iwo Jima strike group there. And more importantly, it was seamless. It was true interoperability, integrative, cutting edge. And it sent a clear message to any potential adversary that NATO, under the leadership of Admiral Jamie Foggo, was ready and prepared. I got to touch one little sea story, though, with the alcohol aboard ships. One of my predecessors, Secretary of the Navy, Josephus Daniels, who served in the Woodrow Wilson administration, he was the one who put upon by prohibitionists of the day, decided to take alcohol off ships because our early naval traditions all focused upon rum rations, just like the British Royal Navy. And so that was eliminated in the early 1900s. And I have to tell you, from the moment that I became Secretary of the Navy, the lobbying that I felt from so many people to bring liquor back aboard our ships was one that would have made any lobbyist on Capitol Hill very proud. One of those things that I had to remind people that that was probably one of the better decisions the Secretary of the Navy had made over the years. And we can't reverse it no matter what our foreign navies do. And I'm glad we didn't.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:17:11] In November 2019, ten Russian submarines cruised into the Barents Sea, going along the Norwegian coast on their way to the North Atlantic in one of their largest undersea exercises since the Cold War. Ambassador Braithwaite, how was the Russian action perceived in Norway and how did you engage locally with the Norwegian government on next steps?

Amb. Braithwaite: [00:17:36] Well, the Norwegians, of course, have cohabited with Russia, you know, since their establishment in the modern era in 1905. But of course, that border has never shifted and changed. The interesting thing is Norway is the only nation that Russia occupied, liberated, if you will, at the end of the Second World War that they withdrew from at the end of the Second World War. And there are many reasons for that, historical as well as cultural, which we don't necessarily have time to go into. But it's a very interesting fact that Russia and Norway have had a healthy relationship. One of the questions I was asked during my Senate confirmation hearing prior to going to Oslo was that I think there was anything that we could learn from Norway's ability to manage that relationship with Russia. So I was there to learn and to convey back to Washington as much as I was there to help reassure the Norwegians that we were strongly behind Article five. What makes the United States great in comparison to any other potential adversary in great power? Competition is just that our partnerships, our alliances, reassuring Norway that we were there with them, demonstrating that in these overflights, as well as putting both our surface ships and our submarines into the Barents to counter Russia. But what it should have told us is this, that Russia is back on the map and that they are interested in providing that deterrent edge, which they believe protects their interests in the Arctic.

Amb. Braithwaite: [00:18:58] So it was I won't say alarming, but it was concerning especially that they had coordinated in such a way. And, you know, they demonstrated their strength through effort in that subsurface domain. When I was asked to be the secretary of the Navy, one of the things I took back to want to do was to reestablish our US Atlantic fleet. And it took me months to be able to do that, to send a really direct message to the Russians that the United States Navy is back, actively engaged and actively focused, vigilant for what Russia has presented to us. No secret the Second Fleet commander just recently spoke about this. Woody Lewis There are Russian submarines, again, patrolling off of the approaches to our eastern coast. That's something that hasn't occurred since before the wall came down. The United States the United States Navy's commitment in the Atlantic is demonstrated in our actions and in what we've recently put out in a new Arctic strategy, ensuring that our allies know that and recognize that for what it is, I think goes a long way to uphold our commitments around the globe.

Adm. Foggo: [00:20:02] There was an officer, a very talented admiral over at Naval Sea Systems Command named Admiral Dave Johnson, and Dave was in charge of building submarines for the United States Navy. Curiously enough, he struck a scale model of the Russian submarine, the Severodvinsk. And he told our engineers over at the Washington Navy Yard, that's the competition, Beat it. And these margins to victory are razor thin. And we still have that competitive edge, but we have to be on guard. And I think that for all the nations in the world, one of the biggest challenges in the undersea domain is the Russian Federation Navy and the Russian submarine force. So I told you I fought the third Battle of the Atlantic. I also coined the expression, We are in the fourth battle of the Atlantic to maintain the sea lines of. Communication open, not just on the surface of the ocean. The great historian and naval strategist Alfred Thayer Mahan. When he talked about sea lines of communication, the routes that our ships cross on the oceans of the world, he didn't think of the 21st century sea line of communication on the bottom of the ocean. Our critical infrastructure, we've got to protect that, too. And so this all came to a head during Trident juncture when the Russians, even though they had two observers with us, their officers who were watching what we were doing, its part of the CFE agreements, the Conventional Forces Europe agreement, that they would be there and allowed to watch.

Adm. Foggo: [00:21:25] They still designed what we call a Notice to Mariners or a closure area just outside territorial waters from Norway. A closure area is an intent to conduct an exercise, so they overlaid an exercise on top of our big exercise, very ungentlemanly thing to do. And so the Norwegians were a little upset about this. They hadn't ever seen this before that close to their waters with Admiral Bruun-Hanssen and his joint staff, They said, Admiral, what do you want to do? And I said, Well, those are international waters. We do the same thing. And quite frankly, unless somebody is launching a missile or doing some kind of an event that might cause an accident or a collision, I'm going to drive right through it. We're going to continue to do this exercise, and we are going to project power and presence and keep those lines of communication open. So that's exactly what we did. I can tell you that just before I left and Ambassador Braithwaite was in the process of his confirmation for being the next secretary of the Navy.

Adm. Foggo: [00:22:27] But I sent a message up to his staff, a Navy captain, Gary Rogness, who's his executive assistant, said, Gary, we're going to go up and we're going to run a surface action group, international group with the British and American ships, five ships overall. And we're going into the Barents now. The Barents Sea is basically in Russia's backyard. It's a very sensitive area to go with a surface ship flying an American flag or a NATO flag or a British flag. And so we consulted the Norwegians on this and they were okay with it. But they have to live next door to the Russians 24/7, 365. But we wanted to send a message that these are international waters and so there should be freedom of navigation in accordance with the UN Convention on Law of the Sea. And so we did it. And I don't think the Russians are very happy about it, but they need to get used to it because we're going to be operating up there. This sea change in attitude and operational tempo changed on Ambassador Braithwaite's watch while he was in Norway.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:23:25] I wanted to point out to our listeners that Russia has reoccupied seven former bases in the Arctic Circle and built two new ones. Russia now requires foreign vessels to obtain permission, embark Russian Ice pilots and serve under the escort of Russian icebreakers before entering the Northern Sea route. So this is a question for both of you. Can you explain to our audience what this means for US interests and what it means in terms of international law?

Adm. Foggo: [00:23:55] Three ways you can get over the top of the pole. You can go the Northwest Passage, the Northeast Passage, or most recently, because the ice has opened up an additional two months of the year. You can go through something called the Northern Sea Route. That Northern Sea Route happens to be in Russia's economic zone. So they're naturally sensitive about that under the UN Convention on Law of the Sea, when you're transiting through waterways that are constricted, there is something called transit passage, which is you move from point A to point B expeditiously. You don't stop and loiter or dilly-dally around, its business. You want to get through this geographic portion of the maritime domain quickly so you can get to the other end and deliver your cargo. And it's mostly maritime traffic that goes up there. Now, the Russians came out with a statement a couple of years ago towards the end of my tour as Commander Sixth Fleet. And they said, well, this is our backyard as though it were their lake. And I have pushed back on that and say it's nobody's lake, therefore you must give us 45 days notification.

Adm. Foggo: [00:25:00] You must be escorted by Russian icebreakers, presumably their nuclear powered icebreaker fleet, and have Russian pilots guide you through the Northern Sea route, which implies that there would be a cost in terms of a monetary cost. In order to do this, we said, no, we're not going to do that. And their response was, well, anybody that violates these rules could be fired upon. I think that's quite an escalatory step on the part of the Russians. But then again, their politics and their policy is to escalate, to de-escalate. Now, we haven't heard that since then, but the Northern Sea route is one of those areas that everybody should have an opportunity to navigate through without any kind of a threat or if necessary, without the use of 45 days permission or Russian pilots on board. Certainly if it's necessary for safety, that's acceptable. But those routes, like any other constricted route in the world and we have this conversation with the Chinese and the South China Sea all the time. Again, another reason why the United States Navy needs to be there, be present and projecting power.

Amb. Braithwaite: [00:26:03] Everything that you said is spot on. The Russians are back in. They're back in a formidable way. They have flex their muscle and they have shown their intent, you know, reopening all those bases. Arguably, you could say that's their own backyard. They have the right to do that. But why would they do that if they don't intend to not only defend, but project power into the Arctic? Russia's desire is to be relevant on the world stage. Right? So when the wall came down, the Soviet Union evaporated. You know, Russia went into this period internally demoralized. Then Putin comes to power and he reasserts himself. He reasserts Russian influence and his desire from when he first took the Crimean peninsula, he came into eastern Ukraine. He moved into Georgia, has been to reclaim that relevancy on the world stage, partly because the rest of us had all kind of dismissed them as a regional power. Well, Russia's not a regional power. Russia is a huge nation unto itself with a lot of resources, and it's a significant player. China, on the other hand, not necessarily relevant, but they want to be dominant on the world stage. So that's the delta right between a nation that wants its rightful place amongst the most powerful in the world and that nation that wants to subvert the world order and see themselves at the top of that order.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:27:19] Well, I'm going to move back to the diplomatic realm. The Arctic Council includes the eight countries with land in the Arctic Circle and is the leading forum for the region. It focuses on such issues as the environment, scientific cooperation, oil pollution, preparedness, search and rescue. Its mandate explicitly excludes military security. In an Arctic Circle meeting in 2019, then-Secretary of State Pompeo made a very strong speech to the members stating that the region had become an arena for power competition and that the days of focusing on certain soft, cooperative issues and those are my words, were over. Given Russia's aggressive behavior and China's predatory practices, the speech surprised many Nordics for its tone. So, Ken, what was the reaction in Norway and how did you manage public messaging about the US call for the council to recognize a new era?

Amb. Braithwaite: [00:28:18] It was alarming. But the reality is, you know, as I mentioned to the foreign ministers, I mentioned to the Prime Minister, these are different times. You know, we've come past that period of a peaceful coexistence to a world that is now on the verge of new great power competition. You just mentioned it a little earlier. You know, who's the one who's building bases in the Arctic? Senator Dan Sullivan pushed on me from the moment that I became a nominee to reassert the United States Navy in Alaska above the Arctic Circle. I'm an old Arctic anti-submarine warfare pilot who used to fly missions up above the Arctic Circle out of Naval Air Station Adak, Alaska, out at the end of the Aleutian chain, all been closed since the early 1990s. Why? Because the threat had changed and the Arctic was a peaceful place for decades. Well, that's changed. And it wasn't the United States building those bases up there. It was Russia. And it's not the United States that has a presence in the Arctic today that is unprecedented for not being an Arctic nation, that's China. So this was a wake up call. And I think that Secretary Pompeo was correct in being extremely direct. It was a wake up call. You know, I think in my engagement with the leadership in Norway and across the Nordics, because we worked very closely, as you know, being a foreign Service officer, there's a lot of interaction amongst those who are regionally affiliated with you. We emphasize this, that this was a new era and we needed to ensure that we were aware of that, that we could provide a deterrent position, a posture, if you will, to ensure that there was rule of law in this new emerging space called the Arctic.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:29:59] Well, related to that, since you both have been so good at strategic communications.

Amb. Braithwaite: [00:30:05] Jamie's better than I am.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:30:07] Well, you both specialized a lot in this. What additional strategic messaging should the US be engaging in to advance our interests in the Nordic and Arctic regions. 

Amb. Braithwaite: [00:30:18] Well, I think first and foremost, you know, we need to recognize the fact that we are an Arctic nation. 30% of the undiscovered natural gas reserves are in the Arctic, 15% conventional oil reserves. There's over 1 trillion USD in rare earth minerals in the Arctic. So as the Arctic becomes more open to that kind of exploration, you know, it becomes an area of interest for all nations of the world. So the Arctic Council has to evolve. We have to recognize the importance of those alliances. Standing together to ensure that we maintain this sense of security. We maintain this space where all nations who have a vested interest in the Arctic have access to the Arctic.

Adm. Foggo: [00:30:59] I agree with everything that Ambassador Braithwaite pointed out there, particularly that the Arctic Council is a terrific organization with a great charter. The one thing that I may disagree with the Arctic Council on is that they are determined that the Arctic will not become militarized. And I would submit, as I said from my first deployment to the North Pole on a nuclear powered US Navy submarine in 1983, it already was militarized. There was conflict in the Arctic region during World War Two. Norway was certainly part of that conflict with Nazi Germany. And then there was the Cold War. And we've been operating various platforms and ships up there ever since. So there is a military aspect to peace and security in the Arctic that must be addressed at ironically, at the US Naval War College in Newport, Rhode Island. One of the gentlemen who is leading this charge is Rear Admiral Lars Saunes. He's a friend of Ambassador Braithwaite's and mine. He was the former chief of naval operations of the Norwegian Navy. And so we knew him when he was on active duty. And then he took a chair at the Naval War College and has been leading the charge on Arctic peace and security ever since. He's got some good ideas. And as far as the diplomatic corps is concerned, you know, he'd like to see everyone get back to a track 1.5 dialogue on the Arctic, not just through the Arctic Council, but he'd like to reinvigorate the Arctic CHODs Chief of Defense conference. So whereas the council meets as our civilian leaders and our diplomats, the chiefs of defense get together and this includes Russia and it stopped this Arctic CHODs conference stopped after the illegal annexation by Russia of the Crimea. Even the Russians, they have a special Arctic envoy, Nikolai Korshunov has stated publicly, you know, it'd be a good idea to get our chiefs of defense back together to de-escalate the potential tension in the region, particularly since China has been given this status as a near Arctic nation is now involved up there with a lot of shipping going over the top of the pole.

Adm. Foggo: [00:33:06] One of the other things that I'm in favor of, and I was remotely involved in this while I was in the Pentagon during the Western Pacific Naval Symposium in Qingdao, China, back in 2013, the Chinese sponsored an event where all of the ASEAN nations and France, Russia and the United States came together and they signed something called CUES. CUES is the Code for Unplanned Encounters at Sea. The United States Navy initiated the Ink Sea Agreement in 1972 and the Cold War to avoid negative interactions, potentially collisions or kinetic interactions between US Navy warships and Russian warships. It's a bilateral agreement and we've met ever since. Once a year to talk about, well, you did this and you did this, and how do we resolve this and de-escalate tensions? CUES is another version of this that would be available for not just Arctic nations, but the rest of NATO. So the French signed on to CUES, but not a lot of the other 21 NATO nations have agreed to this. So the worst time to try to figure out how you're going to de-escalate a close encounter or something we call being in extremis. An extreme situation at sea is when you're in extremis, you want to have a standard operating procedure. So the Naval War College has advocated, let's get back together and let's look at this and potentially initiate a conference on CUES for those nations who are operating up in the Arctic and think that's a very good idea.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:34:37] Well, to wrap up, I wanted to ask you the following. As your careers indicate, Navy officers are often called to be diplomats. What would you tell rising national security leaders about the relationship between our diplomats and our military officers?

Amb. Braithwaite: [00:34:53] Naval history is replete long before there was the ability to move around the globe as easily as we do today. The State Department, of course, had key ambassadorships and they had different consular postings. But it was those naval officers like Commodore Matthew Perry, who opened up Japan that had to have a sense of diplomacy. And that's kind of hammered into our heads as young naval officers. As a former US naval officer, as a former US diplomat, there's natural synergy between those roles and having an understanding of world order and the importance of relationships and trade and the very essence of what we do to ensure freedom of navigation in the Navy ties all those nations together and the understanding that make no secret of this, I had the great fortune to work for one of the greatest US ambassadors in modern history, Ryan Crocker in Islamabad, Pakistan. And I saw it my entire career to emulate people who I looked up. When I became a US ambassador, I sought to emulate Ryan Crocker. And so the relationship between the State Department and the Defense Department, I believe, gets stronger every day.

Amb. Braithwaite: [00:35:59] The understanding and the interplay between the two are ever so important for our national security around the globe. Kudos, if I could, to the State Department. I used to tell the guys and gals in Oslo that they were truly the unsung heroes of our nation. I think General Colin Powell recognized this when he became Secretary of State. You know, it's very easy to identify a military member by the uniform that they wear or the ribbons that they have, the awards they have on their uniform when they come back from service around the globe, but State Department professional just melds back into society where in the same civilian suit as anyone else and they're not as celebrated as they should. And I will tell you, having served alongside of them in Beirut, Lebanon, or in Islamabad, Pakistan, or in Oslo, Norway, that their commitment to national security, their commitment to ensure that the United States remains that beacon of freedom around the globe is sacred to them, as it is to anybody in uniform.

Adm. Foggo: [00:36:56] When I go back to my formulation as a naval officer, probably the pinnacle of my time before I became an admiral was working in the Pentagon for Admiral Mike Mullen as chairman of the Joint Chiefs. So I was his executive assistant for his first two years as CJCS. Secretary Bob Gates was upstairs as SecDef. Those two guys were of like mind. Gates made a speech at a midwestern university where he said, Look, if I could take the budget for one nuclear powered aircraft carrier and the Ford, USS Ford, is about a $13.5 billion aircraft carrier and give it to the State Department, I would do so to expand our efforts and our reach across the globe for our diplomats. Admiral Mullen fully subscribed to that. That made a big difference to the Department of State while I was there, we instituted this thing called the Special Representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan, Richard Holbrooke, a force of nature. He didn't have an airplane.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:37:58] He was his own airplane. Yeah.

Adm. Foggo: [00:38:02] President Obama, in trying to settle a debate on how is he going to fly around, said, well, you know, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs has an airplane. Could he fly with him? Now, Admiral Mullen was very accommodating. So that meant that our staff went with Ambassador Holbrooke's staff. And it was myself, of course, the chairman, he had to be on the plane. And John Kirby from CNN, who's now back in the Pentagon, another great Navy public affairs officer. I learned a lot from watching Secretary Holbrooke on many of these trips. They called him the bulldozer in a quagmire. But man, that guy got stuff done and was really, really sad when he left. Probably the only reason I'm in the Council on Foreign Relations now. One thing I took away from that when I became an admiral and I went overseas is you never go anywhere. You don't start any business in any country without talking to the country team. And the ambassador of the chargé first and I had many, many friends and many people that helped me. Ambassador Phil Kosnett in Kosovo, Ambassador Maureen Cormack in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Ambassador Satterfield in Turkey, pretty tough situation, great diplomat, Ambassador Jeff Pyatt in the Ukraine and again in Greece, Fantastic diplomat. And so anywhere I went, I'd meet the country team and they pulled my bacon out of the fire several times because there were things I just didn't understand, a nuance of politics or diplomacy. And they explained it to me and said, don't go here, go there. Could you possibly carry this message for us? I'm encouraged by the new administration and wanting to put more resources into state and build our diplomatic corps back up and think this team of team approach is not only pertinent to the relationship between the Department of Defense and the Department of State, but also throughout the interagency. I think we need more men and women like Ambassador Ken Braithwaite and yourself, Deborah, to carry that forward in the 21st century.

Amb. Braithwaite: [00:39:49] You know, Americans, we are very blessed and we live each and every day amongst the splendor that has been created by our forefathers. And it's very easy to be myopic and look down and enjoy the day to day and not think up and out as to what the challenges are beyond our borders. You're going to ask me a question about China. We need to be extremely vigilant. You know, not since the War of 1812 has the United States had a potential adversary. And back then it was a hard adversary, Great Britain, the greatest nation in the world at that time in history that could have actually eliminated our sovereignty. You know, not to say that China will eliminate our sovereignty, but they've shown their national intent, their political will, and they have, most importantly, the economic wherewithal, much different than Russia. As Soviet Union tried to match our strength, they did not have the economic wherewithal. Today, communism is alive and well and we are up against it. And we as Americans need to be vigilant to look outside our borders at what's going on around the world. And that's why I stress the whole alliances, the partnerships. There is no. Time in history where our partners and allies to the United States have been more important to us than they are today.

Amb. Braithwaite: [00:40:53] And we need to emphasize that. We need to double down on that, because when you look at the Near-peer competitors, none of them have those alliances. None of them have those partnerships. And that's the force multiplier, as we say in the Department of Defense that gives us that edge to be able to stay one step ahead of what the intent of the People's Republic of China is all about. I'd love to see one day NATO move beyond the confines of just the defense of Western Europe. Admiral Foggo and I have talked about this. We should create a NATO of democracies around the world so that we align not only under an Article five, but let's create a new article that's economic interdependence, so that if a People's Republic of China goes after an Australia, as they have recently, we would band together and say an attack on one and attack on all. We're just going to shut down our markets to you if you can't play by the same rules that the rest of us play by. That's the only way that we're going to get China's attention to recognize what the real importance of a world order that can work together under the auspices of of rule of law.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:41:53] Well, I want to thank you so much for participating in the General and the Ambassador and for sharing your experience, your thoughts, your wisdom and your guidance for those who come after us in senior positions. I really, really appreciate it because I know you both are very busy.

Amb. Braithwaite: [00:42:10] It's very kind of you to invite me to be on this program. Jamie is a force of nature and he is naval forces Europe, NATO commander. He is very high profile. And I will tell you, few people are as great of a leader as Jamie Foggo is. I really do hope one day he comes back into public service and is an ambassador, because I think that would be to everybody's advantage.

Adm. Foggo: [00:42:30] Maybe next time we'll get to the hardest question you didn't ask us and that's what was our favorite meal, but we'll save that for.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:42:37] I figured maybe you'd throw that in. This has been a new episode in the series, The General and the Ambassador, A Conversation. Thank you so much for listening. Our series is a production of the American Academy of Diplomacy with the generous support of the Una Chapman Cox Foundation. You can find our podcasts on all major podcast sites as well as on our website. GeneralAmbassadorPodcast.Org. Please follow us on Twitter and Facebook and we welcome all input and suggestions. We can be reached directly at general.ambassador.podcast@gmail.com.