Episode 62. US National Security Interests in West Africa: Opportunities and Dangers with Ambassador Robin Sanders and General Kip Ward

Episode Transcript:

Amb. McCarthy (00:00): From The American Academy of Diplomacy, this is The General and the Ambassador. Our podcast brings together senior US diplomats and senior US military leaders in conversations about their partnership during a major international crisis or a challenge to US national security. I'm Ambassador Deborah McCarthy, the producer and host. The General and the Ambassador is a production of the American Academy of Diplomacy in partnership with UNC Global at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Today, we will discuss US military and diplomatic engagement with the countries of West Africa. Our guests are General Kip Ward and Ambassador Robin Sanders. General Ward was the Commander of US Africa Command from 2007 to 2011. Just prior, he was the Deputy Commander of the United States European Command. In that position, he concurrently served as United States Security Coordinator covering the Israel Palestinian authority. His other assignments include Somalia, Bosnia Herzegovina, Egypt, and Vice Director for Operations in the Department of Defense. General Ward is the President and Chief Operating Officer of Centel Corporation. Ambassador Robin Sanders served as the US Ambassador to Nigeria from 2007 to 2010 and to Congo from 2003 to 2005, she also served as US permanent representative to ECOWAS, as Director for Africa at the National Security Council, and as Deputy Commandant at the National Defense University's Eisenhower College in Washington. She is currently the CEO of FEEEDS and FE3DS LLC, which focuses on African business, investment, and trade strategies. General Ward, Ambassador Sanders, thank you so much for joining The General and the Ambassador. General Ward has been our guest before, about two years ago if I recall, very happy to welcome you back. As I mentioned in the introduction, our topic today is going to be US interests in West Africa, and I'd like to start with a little introduction. West Africa is a vast region of 380 million people covering 17 countries from Cape Verde in the Atlantic Ocean to the Eastern frontier of Niger. Portions of several of these countries straddle the Sahel, a semi arid region, which stretches from the Atlantic to the Red Sea, bounded on the north by the Sahara desert. I want to start by talking a bit about what is happening in West Africa. There's been a spike in violence, increased political instability, and a growing footprint by competitors, such as China and Russia. According to one source, violence across West Africa and the Sahel region has displaced an estimated 2 million people. On the political side, Mali's just had its fifth coup. In Chad, the long serving president was killed last April, and the military has taken over. The presidents of the Cote d'Ivoire and Guinea amended their constitutions to allow them to run for third terms. And Benin's president has cracked down on the country's civil society and opposition. In terms of global competition, China continues robust investment across the area and has troops in the UN force in Mali. Russia has signed security cooperation agreements with multiple countries in the region. Lastly, we also have the challenges of climate change and COVID-19, it was the epicenter of the 2014-2015 Ebola epidemic during which the US sent the 101st airborne to help beat the global spread of the disease. This was a topic of one of our earlier podcasts. So let's start with the big picture, General Ward, Ambassador Sanders, Why is West Africa important to the United States?

Amb. Sanders (04:20): I do want to start with kind of an overall strategic statement, which I think Africa writ large is important to the United States on all of the areas that we're going to talk about vis-a-vis West Africa, I think they're are applicable to the continent writ large. But specifically for the West Africa region, I think that what comes into mind is three strategic buckets. There is an economic bucket, which is a large one, it includes business trade and investment. There is certainly the security bucket, and I know we'll talk about that in detail further today. And then there's the political bucket. You know, in the global world that we live in today, we need as many strategic and like-minded friends as we possibly can have, given the dynamics globally and all of the things we see today, even including the global pandemic. You noted Ambassador there's 380 million people in the region of which about 75% are people under the age of 40. That is the future working force of the world. And in fact, when you think about where we are going to have markets that we work with, that we trade with, where are we going to have manufactured products that we sell? Where is that going to take place? If you're looking at the region that has that much of the working age population, that is where we need to be. And I say that all the time. Other parts of that is about 50% of that population will be young women or women. When you think of those two things together, how could it not be important? The security thing is extremely important, but I do think we need to keep in mind that the region has 17 countries. You need to also look at them as individual countries, as well as the regional perspective on political, economic, and the security front. The other thing that I think is critical is when you look at why Africa is important economically, you know, where are we going to sell our manufactured products? If we don't have larger markets, we don't have places to sell them. And I do think that we need to look at Africa very much on the trade front, but very much on the manufacturing front as well. I would add that, you know, when you look at the continent, writ large, you can look at each region brings its own value to that strategic bucket that I mentioned and West Africa certainly does. You know, I know we'll talk about the security situation a little bit later, so I will hold my comments on the security situation. But I do think that there's a huge security role that we play and that the West Africa region plays for us. I think that we can't underestimate the importance of that regional play, but also that individual country play. As you mentioned in your opening remarks about Mali, I don't know if you've heard the news this morning, but there was certainly an attempt on the coup leader's life this morning. He's fine. But still there is a huge instability that seems to be sweeping across the region, that for a long time Africanist like me, it's extremely worrying.

Amb. McCarthy (07:15): General, where would you like to comment?

Gen. Ward (07:16): I'd just like to highlight three things, and I will call them a layman's perspective, if you will, such that, you know, the importance of Africa to the United States of America, our citizens, is clearly there. First is geography. There was a day when oceans and mountain ranges separated us, that's no longer the case. And even at that point, West Africa is close to our shores. It's also close to others who are important to us, from South America to Europe, obviously the Caribbean, they are close neighbors, they are close neighbors. That part of the continent is in fact, geographically close to us. The flight across the Atlantic is a relatively short flight. Comparatively speaking, you can be from the east coast of the United States to the west coast of Africa. It's like flying from the east coast of the US to Hawaii. The Ambassador pointed to other notions of population and I won't go through the very fine detail that she said, youth, women, sheer numbers, and what they will be demanding is there. And so clearly from our point of view, that population represents potential markets, talk about of the economic activity, the trade and investment opportunities. So that's there as well to be sure. I mean, you look at what goes on from the standpoint of under governed spaces, the ability of violent extremist organizations to take hold, take residence, then that clearly has a global impact, clearly impacts us. And it's in the United States national interest to understand that and to do all that we can to ameliorate the potential of that causing us harm either on our shores or through our citizens abroad. And then finally, when you look at how all this comes together, and it's about a point that was also made with respect to governance issues, the number of coups, how governments take care of their people in ways that they understand it and ways that they know it, providing for their needs from economic needs to health needs, welfare needs, growth needs, taking the things that are important to the youth population to cause them to feel as if they have what I call a horizon of hope, where they are, so that immigration issues become less of a circumstance for the global community. All of these are things that cause us to have a deep interest in Africa, a continent that is three and a half times the size of the continental United States.

Amb. Sanders (09:28): And the thing that gets missed when we think about strategic issues is that when you think about international fora like the United nations, like the World Trade Organization, it is critical that we have like-minded partners in those organizations in order for us to move forward on major, major international issues. The role that Africa will play in international fora is going to be incredible. And so we have to have like-minded friends and partners in those international arenas for some of the issues that we want globally to be achieved, to be achieved, and to be voted on in a way that we support. And that is to me is also a critical component of the strategic thinking that has to be done on why Africa writ large is important and why West Africa in particular, with 17 countries, is critically important as well.

Amb. McCarthy (10:20): I wanted to start dissecting some of our interests, starting with the security situation in the the region, and what it means for our diplomatic and military engagement. And then we'll move into our efforts to foster democracy, governance, and economic development. We have there violent extremist groups that operate in the region. In 2013 in Mali an Al Qaeda affiliate threatened overrun the capitol and France intervened with troops. Since that time in Mali, there's been a UN peacekeeping mission with about 13,000 troops and 2000 police. In Nigeria, conflict between the military and two terrorist organizations, Boko Haram, known by many of our listeners as the group which has kidnapped hundreds of school children, as well as the Islamic State West Africa Province group, they have killed tens of thousands over the past decade and displaced millions. Extremist groups have targeted establishments frequented by Westerners, conducting attacks against a UN building in Nigeria in 2011 and against hotels in Mali, Burkina Faso, and the Ivory Coast. France has had a multi-year counter-terrorism operation in the region called Operation Barkhane involving, 5,000 troops. The US military has provided logistical support to the French effort and supported the UN mission in Mali. Can you talk about how these groups, what they signify in terms of threats to the United States? They're obviously major threats internally for the population, for democratic stability. What do they represent in terms of threats to the US and its partners?

Amb. Sanders (12:11): Having lived and breathed this on the ground, the whole reason I think that this is critically important, this podcast that you are doing, is to really push home to Americans the national security interests that we have on the security elements in West Africa. There are probably many adult Americans that remember December 24th, around 11:00 PM that night, in 2009, where we nearly had 274 people on a Northwest Airlines flight get blown up by a young man, who had a bomb in his undergarments. He is now serving four life consecutive terms, plus 50 years. I was in Nigeria when that happened, I was Chief of Mission, and also, you know, head of the representation at ECOWAS, which is the governing regional body for West Africa. I'm raising that to underscore something that General Ward said earlier about the security element being critically important because it's emanating from there and translates to our shores, which is the example that I just gave you. We were very, very lucky in 2009, that the bomb did not go off. And then of course, more recently we've had a young African-American soldier lose his life in Niger. Also when his unit was attacked by jihadist groups or militant groups connected to jihadist groups in West Africa. Going back to what I said earlier, the global connection, that's there. And the closeness that General Ward mentioned between our shores, the West Africa shores and the Eastern Seaboard of the United States. It's very much there. And so even if the original aspect of the threat doesn't generate from some of the security threats by the groups in West Africa, they can be used as a trampoline to get to us. And that's exactly what happened with Faruq, the bomber. He was trained in Yemen. He was trained by what we call the Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula known better as AQAP. And that training was really targeting us, but using this young man as a trampoline to get to us. I testified before Congress on Boko Haram actually, since I was one of the early Americans on the ground there. I've been up there six times or so, probably the most of any American, civilian American, I should say, have been up there. And I talked about, back in 2014, that I thought that the potential for ISIS and other groups to use Boko Haram and other groups in Nigeria to get to us would happen, that that linkage would happen. It didn't happen in 2014, but it did happen by 2016. And so we have to be very, very forward-thinking in how we look at what's going on now. I know that in Nigeria, in particular, you mentioned a lot of examples there, but what I want to underscore that I'm talking about more recently is this proxy relationship that has developed where you have jihadist groups using bandits and militia now that have nothing to do with their cause per se, but they're using them in a proxy capacity to do their bidding in another part of the country. It's very worrying. We have to have our strategic hat on, and we have to look at some of these groups and how they operate very differently, because even though the outcome is violence, the goals for those groups are not all the same. And I think that that's a policy part that we really have to pay attention to.

Gen. Ward (15:41) Going back to the Sahel, as an example, as early as 2003, 2004, 2005, you had activities going on, there were a lot of those activities that were criminal activities, narcotics trafficking, drug trafficking, weapons trafficking, human trafficking, going on through those routes. These are traditional trading routes that beforehand were being used by criminals, criminal activities. Now those same activities, those same routes, if you will, have been taken over by now, the terrorist organizations who then come in and use the same routes, use the same procedures, but as opposed to trafficking various commodities, now exporting violence, extreme terrorism, training, et cetera, et cetera. And then using those as means to turn populations that would essentially have been able to work things out, so to speak, but now no longer are working things out. Now, turning these things about and pitting communities against communities. And so you get the rise of these conditions and groups, you get the bandits taking advantage of what goes on, as an example, the kidnapping, the Boko Haram there, and the kidnapping of the school girls. Clearly that, but now taking on an even greater degree of problem set for the global community because of others, you know, bandits, just a way of making money and you don't have the ability of governments to come in and really take advantage and stop those sorts of things. So our security activities, firstly, must be predicated upon how we establish our national policies, both at the tactical, but also at the operational and even at the strategic level. So that the thing that we do today, we see it potentially having impact 5, 10, 20 years from now. And sometimes we don't do that because of the immediacy of the situation. You mentioned the various attacks that went on at those locations, and we will respond to those because we will not stand by and allow American citizens to be placed in harm, wherever they may be. We're going to do something about that. Our concern is how do we help set conditions, such that those things don't happen to begin with?

Amb. McCarthy (17:40): Well, as part of national policy, both of you, Kip, Robin, were present at the creation, as I could say, of AFRICOM. General, you were the first head of the African Command. Robin, you worked on the issue with the State Department, the National Security Council, as Ambassador to Nigeria. When it was stood up, I understand that there was an effort to have its headquarters, not in Germany where it's located, but in Africa, but that was not acceptable to many countries in the region. Recently however, the President of Nigeria suggested that AFRICOM headquarters be relocated from Germany to some place on the continent. So what has changed since 2007 and would such a move ever be considered?

Amb. Sanders (18:33): I do want to remind our audience of the bombing of our two embassies in 1998 and the role that al-Qaeda played in that and really just bring home for myself in particular, I was at the National Security Council when that happened, I was at Andrew's [Air Force Base] when those bodies of Americans were brought back. And so it's all personal and professional to me in the sense that, you know, having lived, how important the policy connection has to be to the security element. I do think we, as a policy, interagency grouping need to take into account what I call, and it's not a very popular phrase, the class of civilizations. Yes, there are these drivers there, you know, the lack of education, opportunity, hope, all of these things, but having been there on the ground and having talked to some of these young people and why. There is really a fundamental clash of civilizations on how they view the world and how they want the world to be. That is harder to get at from a policy perspective. A lot has changed since 2007. And that piece is one of them, that class of civilization aspect is certainly one of those things. But initially it was called the African Crisis Response Force, and we actually had a location identified in Botswana, but the negative outcry was just so visceral that we walked it back and we were given lots of ultimatums. You know, no way on earth do we want boots on the ground. I mean, it was really tough. One of my first month or so in Nigeria, that is all I dealt with because Nigeria at that time was head of the Peace and Security Committee of the African Union. And so they were quite vocal. Back in the early days, I was 100% for it being on the continent. I thought that's where it needed to be. That's where we could be most effective. Today, I'm not so sure. And I say that because who knows what will happen next? Yes, maybe we could spend all of the taxpayer money that it would take to do that, which is enormous, but I'm also a realist. What if they change their mind in two years, what happens then? Do we then ask the US taxpayer to pay all of that money to move something back. Most of the defense attache offices at embassies have AFRICOM support and elements there as part of it. So you already have AFRICOM there in that iteration. Plus I also think that the American public, particularly with our withdrawal from Afghanistan and other things going on, I don't think the appetite is there for us to put such a large presence on another continent. That is my policy perspective. I pass the baton over to my dear friend and colleague for the expertise on the operational side.

Gen. Ward (21:20): Thank you, Ambassador. My stance on where the command should be, has not wavered one iota since I began discussing it in 2006, 2007, when the notion of creating this Combatant Command started to get traction. In 1998, I was in Cairo, Egypt working out of our embassy in Cairo, as a matter of fact. And so when those bombings happened in Dar es Salaam, at the embassy, that clearly hit home with me with what was going on, and I remembered that date so well. Fast forward and we came to the stand up of Africa Command. Where would it be located? The good news was that that had not been my first entree to the continent. I again, was there, spent time there, I had been to Somalia, even in the early nineties. And so knowing what was going on, and then certainly prior to the stand up of Africa Command, when I was the Deputy Commander of US European Command and that part of the continent that was in European Command's sphere of influence, I clearly was getting to know, which included much of Sub-Sahara Africa. So even with the stand up of Africa Command, I had already been operating on the continent in a Combatant Command role for about a year and a half at that point in time. So getting an understanding of how the various countries of the continent would think about things, et cetera, et cetera. So when they came to the time to stand up the command and where would it be? I had a sense of what had gone on, on that continent. I had the sense from having spoken to many leaders with respect to the colonial period and what the feeling was about having these bases in their countries. And so the notion of a command, of Department of Defense in Africa, somewhere, for me, wasn't high on my hit list because of what I understood to begin with. And so as I was on the fringes of the policy discussions, where would the headquarters be. My guidance, my thoughts, perspective included, "not so sure, not so sure" because of what I already understood and what I'd heard from many, many. So when we stood the command up in 2007, and after I had been confirmed by the Senate, I don't know how much time I spent, it was a lot, traveling the continent, trying to dispel some of the notions that were out there about what the command is. A headquarters, that's not what does the work of the Command, the headquarters plans the work, the headquarters coordinates the work. The headquarters does not do the work, where the work is done is in the various parts of the continent where this goes on. So really, the headquarters location, and as we come to see, it was something that we've spent a lot of energy on it, symbolically, even at that, I was told, well, you know, if it's in one region because of some of the other things we've talked about, another region might not feel too happy about that. So who would we satisfy? What was important was activity on the continent, not a planning headquarters, other than the symbolism of it. From the standpoint of 2007, clearly what we said when we stood the command up about the nature of AFRICOM, so for Kip Ward, where the Command was initially stood up, there at Kelly Barracks in Stutgart, and where it remains today, made sense then, and continues to make sense today from the standpoint of how we are able to plan, how we are able to control, organize, as well as then support the activities that exist across at least 43 different countries of the continent, to include most of the 17 countries of West Africa, where we have activities and engagements with respect to our defense attaches, the security assistance offices, conducting exercises, conducting various other programs that help the Africans increas their capacity to conduct security measures in their own territories, that make sense to them. So a lot's changed, but then again, not much has changed because of what we were able to do and establish, and with respect to moving the Command to where it is, and indeed keeping it there. I recall a session that I had with the Secretary of Defense, and after all the back and forth, I mean, many, many actors, not just military actors, the policy actors, Secretary of Defense Gates, asked me, "Where do you think it should be and why?" And I gave him about a five sentence answer. And that answer that I gave him is what we're living with today. So I'm very, very thankful for that, but we didn't just get there because Kip Ward said we did, we went through a lot of back and forth, a lot of interaction, a lot of outreach and finally said, "Well, gee, I guess I was told some pretty good things here in some of these session and because of my lack of vision, why not have the command forward, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." I was just a product of what I'd seen on the ground, the folks I'd spoken to. And what I understood about what the Command would really be doing, that led me to those early conclusions. And thankfully after a lot of discussion, that's where we are. And candidly, I think that's where it will be. So to the point about, do I think it will change in the future? I see nothing on the horizon that would cause me to say that we would be doing anything different than we're doing right now, because from the standpoint of operational excellence, it doesn't matter. Our ability to do what that command does, where it is, it does it effectively. And in fact, doing it elsewhere, other than again, the economic impact of that infrastructure and the same reasons that the Congressmen from the east coast of the United States asked me about putting the command in their districts and whatnot, up and down the east coast. Those are same reasons that anyone on the continent of Africa, would say put it in my location too. So those are things, and again, each of them come with huge price tags and that price tag has no direct impact on the mission that the Command accomplishes.

Amb. McCarthy (26:57): Well, I'm glad you mentioned the distinction between headquarters versus ability to operate in the field and describe for our listeners that a lot of the activities take place through our missions, through our defense attaches, and those who come in that represent the Africa Command. Because when you look at the footprint of just sheer numbers of soldiers in West Africa, I'm not talking about all of Africa, the US presence on the ground is very limited. The French have the big presence. The UN has a presence in Mali. Recently, France has decided to cut back its presence for domestic reasons, and because of what they say is backsliding in Mali. At the tail end of our last administration, the Trump administration, there was a decision to cut back on our boots on the ground, in the continent. So my question to both of you is what would cut backs in the US presence as well as the end of the French operation mean for security in the region?

Amb. Sanders (28:01): I want to just modify that the comment about the French, they were operating in French-speaking West Africa, which is five of the 17 countries, and not in the English speaking countries. Keep those numbers in mind. We've had a role and we will continue to have a role just like the General outlined in doing the things that we need to do with our partners on the ground. I think the challenge though, is, you know, can the partners on the ground fill their responsibility role in an effective, efficient and long-term manner? I think there's a realization, this is not meant to be disparaging, but I think there's a realization that this morphing of the security threat is so vast and so complex that they need help in a way that they didn't need help in 2007. I know that Secretary Blinken said that he would let the French and the Italians take the lead, and now we have the departure of the French. I think that we all need to take a step back on the policy side and say, okay, what does this mean in terms of filling the gap for our partners on the ground? I am worried about the ability of the G5 countries, those are the five French speaking countries, to be able to step into the void that's going to be left by the French. And so I think it's a challenge. And it's one that we have to take on from a policy perspective more vigorously. I would say the creativity on the extent of the violence and the capability to do horrendous things that we may not even imagine that some of these groups are placing on the populations there is just enormous. And so if we're not thinking ahead, strategically, areas can really turn into or further turn into no man's land. So if we take ourselves out of that, then I think that we have a strategic gap that we can't afford. It's just too volatile. And the potential for us to be harmed either locally with our citizens being hurt or harmed more with that trampoline effect that I mentioned, where someone uses the instability in a way to get at us in different ways.

Gen. Ward (30:08): Two things come to my mind. One, the notion of AFRICOM's footprint to help ameliorate or deal with what's going on. From my very first posture statement through every posture statement that's been made by commanders since then, we've all talked to how much our investment in Africa creates such huge dividends for our nation. It's not a heavy footprint at all, but that investment, and sometimes it's called an economy of force operation, because it is such a small piece of our national security footprint that we've seen devoted to Africa, but that small footprint creates such a huge dividend, but by and large, we are welcomed because when we go and we do things, our forces don't operate like other forces operate. We are seen as a true force that's there to try to help a situation. Now it's not always done to a degree that we wanted to see it done, but it's not because you see activities and actions by service women and men that are contributing to this situation against citizens, from violation of human rights, to how women are treated, the conditions that we expose locally, that doesn't happen. So by and large, we are a welcome presence when we are there. From the exercises to the mil-to-mil training activities to the state partner programs, soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines that wear a United States patch on their shoulders, interacting with their countries soldiers, know, by the way, having that being seen by their citizens, then when it comes to how the United States was able to provide support to, as an example to the French, what the French do in places like Chad, Mali, or Burkina Faso, very, very tight based on past colonial ties there. So when that gets extracted, I certainly agree that there will be a gap in the ability of these countries to fill that. And that's not because of ineffective military, so to speak. That's because of ineffective governance, policy, political dynamics that cause them to be less than they potentially could be.

Amb. Sanders (32:16): One of the great things for Africa Command, and certainly General Ward came to Nigeria a couple of times while I was there on the exercises I can't stress the importance of those exercises enough because they brought together the English speaking West Africa and the French speaking west Africa together to work together and combine exercises. And for command and control issues, or interoperability of equipment, all of those things that the layman doesn't think about, but that our military does think about are so, so, so critical because without that kind of command and control and interoperability, the ability to be effective against what we see happening on the ground is challenging. And so Africa Command does that and they play that huge role in making those linkages between the militaries of Francophone or French speaking Africa and the militaries of English speaking Africa. I don't know whether General Ward will remember this or not going back to sort of the, not wanting Africa Command on the continent back in 2007, a couple of times when General Ward came to Nigeria, we couldn't even go to the foreign ministry. If you remember. Remember we had to go to the Foreign Minister's house, couldn't even take your entire contingent with us. It was just you and I, you know, in the car, quietly to his house, because, you know, there was just this visceral, you know, reaction to AFRICOM. And as I said, I think that's changed because the unimaginable has happened. I'm definitely 100% in the camp that we have to step up with our partners there, but we also have to remain as engaged as we possibly can because of the potential there for the unimaginable to continue to happen is quite high in my view.

Amb. McCarthy (34:05): Well, this is a great way to segue into our US engagement to promote democracy, governance, and economic prosperity in the West Africa region. And I wanted to use Nigeria as an example. For our listeners, Nigeria is Africa's most populous country, its largest economy, and is an oil producer. It's also a major recipient of US assistance, mostly for health programs. The country held elections in 2019, though they were marred by violence and accusations of fraud. So I'll start with you, Robin, what programs or initiatives do you think we need to do more of, or create, to better realize our goals of working with Nigeria to promote political stability, security, good governance, and more equitable economic opportunity?

Amb. Sanders (34:55): I think that we have some great programs certainly on the ground in Nigeria. I do think given everything that's going on there now, the uptick in extremism, the proxy relationship between extremist groups and using bandits and militias to do their bidding, on top of that you have kidnapping has become a cottage industry. So it's a very complex, very worrisome security environment from a whole host of reasons on top of the violent extremism, the jihadist influence there. That means that everything we do to support democratization within the political system, we have to step up and do more of, and that means encouraging political parties to have a more democratic structure within the political parties, to do more with the, it's called the national assembly, which is, functions like our Congress, or like a parliament, doing more to support democratic processes within the national assembly as well, so that you have sort of the legal or legislative structure matching the efforts on democracy. You certainly have to expand more programs and more inclusiveness of women in the political process. And you know, when I talked about that youth bulge, Nigeria's is enormous. You're looking at a country population of about 120 million of which more than 70% are young people under 40. And so you have to be focused on those groups. I think that the programs we are doing and we have done are great programs, but I think the dynamic on the ground with the environments that we've spent time discussing today, requires us to expand them even further. In terms of creativity, I do think of late we've had, added the Young African Leaders Initiative, which I think is a wonderful one, it's YALI, but it's small. When you talk about the population figure on young people, you know, having 1000 to 2000 young Africans come to the US for professional training a year is great, but that's a small dent on that big figure that I gave you. The other thing, at least for Nigeria, we focused on primary education. I would argue, and I have argued that we need to also step up on secondary education. And maybe we can go back to some of the things we did back years ago, but we focused a lot on tertiary education. It's expensive. We don't do that as much, but when you look at sort of the leaders of ago, a lot of them were educated here in the United States and they brought those values back home. A lot of them went to Lincoln University in Pennsylvania. I mean, there's just, we don't do that kind of thing en masse anymore, that we did before. And then there's this whole small business entrepreneurial program that we are working on. We have the West Africa trade hub and we have the East Africa trade hub. And so we are focused more on helping small businesses, expanding what we can do to co-invest in them, and really also expanding what we can do to help train them and help them transition from being a startup to really becoming a more small business focus. And that's the area that I work in as you know today with small businesses, which on the continent are called small and medium size enterprises. And that's the annual program that I do every year with Gallup to really galvanize how we can better help small businesses and provide them with the tools and the trade financing and all the things that can make a business successful. I would go back to something General Ward said earlier about focusing on the communities. Having traveled all of Nigeria's 36 states, maybe four or five times each to each state and being in some of these villages where some Americans have never been, I was told many times you're the first American that's come here, you know, particularly up in the Boko Haram area. So, you know, how do we build those bridges? I remember being at the university in Maiduguri, which is in the heart of Boko Haram country, and doing a program there and a young woman, I still, I look at her picture on my wall here every day, because it keeps me anchored. You know, we used to have this phrase, you know, we want to win the hearts and minds of people on the continent. And she said to me, when you say that to me, or when I hear that from America, that sounds like you want to change who I am. And so how do we reach people where they are? So there's an understanding that we respect who you are. I do think we've got to think about more community based programming, not just the big education and community schools, but some ways so there is an understanding that we want to be good friends and good partners. We are not here to change your way of life and thinking and how you view the world. We're here to be a good friend and a good partner.

Amb. McCarthy (39:40): Well, Kip you've consistently called for synchronizing US defense, diplomacy, and development activities across the region, in order to achieve US foreign policy objectives. Can you explain to our listeners how the DoD programs have complimented and have sought to achieve some of the objectives that Robin was just describing?

Gen. Ward (40:04): Well, I would tell them my folks when we engage, one was we've got to be a listening and learning organization, which means when we go to the place, we're going to listen to the people that we're interacting with. We've got to learn from them. And my second one was, we're going to add value, but at minimum, we're not going to do any harm. And you can't do that, if you don't understand who you're working with. For example, conducting exercises, we go through these planning stages and you conceive an exercise, then you, you plan it, you do on the ground coordination, early coordination. And I had as a part of that coordination, we go into an area, you talk to the locals that we're going to be operating in your area. Firstly, you don't want them to think that you're coming there as they might expect a force to come in to do something nefarious. I would use the terminology when a little child sees, and I'll use soldier in a generic way, Marine, sailor, airman, sees a soldier, hopefully the reaction is that person, that woman, that man, is here to protect me and that the military is creating that type of reaction. Then they're probably doing more of the right thing, as opposed to when a little child sees a soldier and they're running away because this person is a bad person. I can recall very specific case, unfortunately It wasn't in Nigeria, but where we were going in to do an engineering project, to help an element increase its proficiency. And so we needed to help them build a range and do some other things, but there was also a school on this property. And so I'm talking to the commander about the school and this was a school for local kids, but that was kind of sitting there, kind of shabby, whatnot. And so my proposition was, what are you doing for your community? They're going to see this going on or what are you doing for them so that they know that you are there, you belong to them. You're there to protect them, and there's no better example than to cause this school to be more than it is today. So as a part of that whole process, using US engineers to help his folks, they got that thing to a state where they were able to start and then to tie into that what we were able to work with USAID so that they could get some books and other things to help make that a functioning entity. So the point is when we do our work, talk to the locals: what do you want? What things do you need? Because that whole part of stability and security, especially in these locations that are very vulnerable to these nefarious actors is to make them more resilient, make them less susceptible to these outside influences. So our programs were designed that way to understand as best we could what's going on in these local areas tied, more broadly speaking, to our overall strategic, as well as operational, goals and objectives. I called it sustained engagement. Doesn't have to be constant. Doesn't have to be ever present all the time. I'll pick a period of time every 10 months, hey, this has got to be happening, so folks have something to look forward to. And oh, by the way, as this happens here, we're also getting this benefit over here. It's all working together. And so when you plan an exercise, as an example, when you go in, you understand what the impact will be on the community. If you need to build a road someplace to have access to an area, you coordinate with the local community, how will this road better serve you once this particular exercise is over? Well, if you build the road a bit more in this direction and extend it maybe another two or three kilometers, once you're gone, it will still be serving the people and the people remember who did that for them. And oh, by the way, when it happens that way, neighbors are talking to neighbors. I mean, countries are talking to countries. Oh, that happened to... Let me have some of that as well. And then the demand signal goes up. And at the same time, your security situation goes up. The ability of these communities, these nations, to be less susceptible to violent actors, violent extremists, having their lives hijacked, that builds up, they become more resilient. And all of that is in our national interests.

Amb. Sanders (43:59): Well, one of the programs I started in Nigeria, I call it the partnership with states program. And when I got there each agency, there were eight US government agencies, they were working on their projects in very stovepiped manners. So I would go to a school for a USAID program to do books and learning, and I would look up and there would be a huge hole in the roof of the school. You know, how is this possible? Or we would have DoD engineers build boreholes in various villages around the north of Nigeria that no one knew were there. What I put together was an interagency partnership program, where they had to look at all of their projects together to see where they could dovetail with each other. We set up this partnership with state's program, as we engaged with the governors and the community LGA level, which is the Local Government Area, to really take a look at all of our programs, whether they were CDC programs, whether they were DoD programs, whether they were, USAID programs, and they had to work together as teams. It doesn't always match up well, but that was fine. The fact was we looked at it with an interagency eye, saying that USAID is doing this particular project here in this school or this hospital, what have you, where else can we bring US resources to make a greater impact or to have the multiplier impact to what we were doing?

Amb. McCarthy (45:27): Well, US strategic objectives and its methods are very different from other countries operating on the continent. And I wanted to turn now to the issue of so-called great power competition in Africa. China's greatly expanded its presence across the continent. According to one study, China has funded an estimated $75 billion worth of development projects between 2000 and 2011. And then in 2015, pledged another $60 billion in assistance. In Western Africa, it's reportedly looking for naval basing opportunities and has troops included in the Mali UN peacekeeping operation. Russia has economic interests across many parts of Africa and is engaged militarily in places such as the Central African Republic and via mercenaries in Libya. In Western Africa, it's signed several security cooperation agreements. Obviously both countries also vie for the UN votes you were talking about Robin at the beginning that are so valuable as we work on international issues. So my question is how much does China's economic activity in Africa, especially West Africa lead to political influence and leverage, and what are the best US tools to push back?

Gen. Ward (46:50): China, Russia are on the continent. They're on there in West Africa, trying to increase their presence every day in ways that are not in our best interest, because they are impacting in a negative way, the fabric of the societies, where they do what they do. And there are many dimensions to that from how it exacerbates issues of indebtedness, governmental practices that are more corrupt. Our ability to deal with that is pretty limited, but we don't go in with huge amounts of our national government treasure to build infrastructure projects. As an example, we rely on the private piece to kind of help that. But then we have to establish conditions that makes that the case, that makes that appealing to our private enterprise. And there are a lot of programs that attempt to do that, many of which I know Ambassador Sanders is involved in. I'm involved in a few of those as well, to try to help create those sorts of conditions. But when it comes to what Russia does, what China in particular does, these are things that while we are in competition with them, how do we leverage that? How do we cause what we do to either establish a frame of reference that is counter to that so that we create things, conditions that the people of the region can see, in the long run, this is better for us. It's not about how we actively compete with them. We do what we do best because what we do best is still desired by most folks in the parts of the continent that we're talking about.

Amb. Sanders (48:25): My characterization, when I talk about this issue, is that Africa is not the chess board on which China and the US play. Speaking from the African perspective in terms of what I hear all the time is we are not the pawn between you and China. The Cold War dynamic gets back in there again, the history, and I know our listeners may not know that history, but certainly during the Cold War, the US and Russia had Africa in the middle. And there is absolutely no interest of making that a 21st century dynamic as well. Let's cut that part of the rhetoric out and do what we do best because the desire for the US to play a bigger role, to engage consistently, consistently is the key, at a strategic and partnership level, is definitely there. But we have ebbs and flows and we have had ebbs and flows. And particularly over the last few years, there was inconsistency, so that the continent really didn't know where we stood. The rhetoric has improved a little bit, but we're still not there. And this idea that we talk about Africa in the context of China, and also now Russia, first, before we talk about the strategic partnership and the things that we can do that we do well, that's a problem. That being said, I have to be honest, China has expanded its engagement on the continent five-fold, easily. Whether we agree with the programs and the projects and the initiatives and all of that, they're there, it's unfortunate. They have put a lot of countries back into a debt situation where many countries on the continent have spent 25 years getting out of debt. Some of the deals and initiatives that they have signed on to with China have put them back in debt. And so you hear this conversation daily about debt relief, coupled with of course, the impact on the financial circumstances of every country and their GDP as a result of COVID. So we've got to go back to what we do best. We've gotta be able to go back and support Africa, not only in the programs we've all outlined today, but also in other ways. If you think about it, the last US-hosted African heads of state meeting, inviting all African heads of state here, was in 2016. And that's the only one we've had in 13 years. Whereas the China Africa annual meeting with heads of state, where heads of state from entire continent go to China every single year for their annual engagement. And those annual engagements are wide and deep and it produces initiatives. It produces business sector agreements, all of these things. We've only done that once in the last 13 years. Yes, we can talk about how important Africa is to us, but they're waiting to see two things: that we mean it and that we are consistent. The China piece is huge because they are pouring billions of dollars into big visible infrastructure programs. And of course, you know, we can't do that. We don't do that. But what we do bring to the table are best business practices, when you are doing a deal. We have the MCC, the Millennium Challenge Corporation program, which is one of my favorite ones where we help on these infrastructure projects by really pulling together their various ministries so that they can do a project more effectively and more efficiently. Those best business practices are things that we bring to the table that no other country does. Let's do what we do well consistently. And let's show that we have our actions matching up with our rhetoric on how important Africa is to us, both strategically and as a partner.

Amb. McCarthy (52:14): The Biden administration has declared its intention to re-engage in a more consistent way. The President participated in the virtual summit of the African Union, because it was still during COVID. Is this sustainable? Given everything the administration is doing, is this declared intent to engage in a deeper way, and certainly the initial indications are, both the President, the Secretary of State and others, trying as best they can during COVID to participate in events with African countries. Do you think they'll be able to sustain this new level of engagement?

Amb. Sanders (52:52): I think they're going to have to, if they want Africans to take it seriously. I'm delighted to see that. I was, it was wonderful to see the President speak to the African Union, Secretary Blinken has really been on point. We look forward to having the nominee for Assistant Secretary in place for the Africa region. That will be key and important. So the desire is there. There's absolutely desire. There's a desire for us to be more engaged, more consistent, and even expand the programs that we're doing, everything that we've talked about today. So we just have to do it. And we have great teams in our embassies overseas. I wish the American people knew how much the diplomatic team on the ground really works on behalf of the American people. We have all of the things in place. And the other thing I do want to highlight is that for the most part, the Africa region, in terms of policy and the programs that have come through Congress have come through in a bipartisan manner. There hasn't been a lot of breakdown between our political entities on what to pass legislatively, to support Africa. Every big initiative on Africa that's come through our Congress has been a bipartisan one that has been voted into law. And that's an unsung message there that I think we can capitalize on to do some of the things that both General Ward and I talked about today. Africa has been a very bipartisan support issue on the Hill. And so I think we have an opportunity. I think the environment is right to do that. We have an administration that's dedicated to doing that. We have a continent that's looking forward to us doing that. And so it comes down to a Nike thing of just let's just do it.

Gen. Ward (54:35): And we didn't talk about something called the State Partner Program that exists, really around the world now, but it didn't take hold in Africa until we stood up the Command. We went from, I think, three state partners to, I believe the number's now 14 or 15, whereby a state national guard unit partners with a nation on the continent of Africa. And in a state guard unit, you have members, women and men who have civilian jobs as well. Some government civilian jobs, some private civilian jobs, but when they go and engage with their partners on the continent in these countries where these state partner programs exist, they're bringing the power of our example with them. And those are the things that tend to do three things. It demonstrates a commitment, it demonstrates a partnership, and it demonstrates a willingness to also learn from the partner. And when you create those sorts of relationships, those are the things that without any direct way, counter the negative effects that engagements that are going on by countries who don't have the same values, principles that we have when it comes to how societies operate, how governments operate in ways that are legitimate to their people, how they respect the rights of their people, how they operate in ways that are less corrupt, as opposed to being more corrupt, as they operate in ways that propel their people in ways beyond where they are. And those are things that create stability in an environment. And so it's that type of engagement that we need to see more of. It creates a type of lasting relationship. Also the resiliency that's needed in a society in the country and all of those things also operate in our national interest. And the things that we spoke to earlier on as to why is West Africa important, those things then take, hold, take root. And they become something that we realize as a people, as a nation. And this is a win-win for all of us.

Amb. McCarthy (56:34): Well, I want to thank you both for sharing your knowledge, sharing your wisdom, sharing your passion for a region that is extremely important to the United States. You have conveyed so much to younger listeners about how we operate and work overseas and why it's important. You've done it in a way that I have rarely heard. So bravo, it's fantastic. Really, really good.

Amb. Sanders (57:00): Thanks. It was a pleasure to be invited. It was great to be on with General Ward.Iit was great to participate and certainly any message that really helps educate Americans about how important Africa is, I'm there 100% anytime you need. And thank you so much General Ward for having this great relationship over the years, and working with you in the field and certainly being on a program with you today. An absolute pleasure on my part.

Gen. Ward (57:24): Thank you. I enjoyed it.

Amb. McCarthy (57:27): This has been a new episode in the series The General and the Ambassador: a Conversation. Thank you for listening. Our series is a production of the American Academy of Diplomacy in partnership with UNC Global at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, you can find our podcasts on all major podcast sites and on our website generalambassadorpodcast.org. Do follow us on Twitter and Facebook. And we welcome all input and suggestions. You can mail us directly at general.ambassador.podcast@gmail.com. Thank you for listening.