Episode 69. Brazil: “You Have a Friend” – Deepening the US Military and Diplomatic Relationship with Admiral Craig Faller and Ambassador Todd Chapman

Episode Transcript:

Amb. McCarthy: [00:00:29] Welcome to A Conversation: The Academy of Diplomacy series, the General and the Ambassador. Today, our guests are Admiral Craig Faller, Former Commander of the United States Southern Command, and Ambassador Todd Chapman, former U.S. Ambassador to Brazil. Our focus will be on the U.S.-Brazil security relationship. The General and the Ambassador is a production of the American Academy of Diplomacy. This podcast has been sponsored by Dataminr, a leading artificial intelligence platform that delivers real time breaking news alerts to help you make critical decisions and respond with speed and confidence. My name is Ambassador Deborah McCarthy. I'm the producer and host. Admiral Craig Faller commanded the U.S. Southern Command from 2018 to 2021. Previously, he served as the senior military assistant to Secretary of Defense Mattis. Among his many other assignments, he was the Chief of Legislative Affairs for the U.S. Navy and Director of Operations for the United States Central Command. He is currently a Distinguished Fellow at the Atlantic Council and a Senior Fellow at both the National Defense University and Florida International University. Ambassador Chapman served as a U.S. ambassador to Brazil from 2020 to 2021. Previously, he served as the U.S. Ambassador to Ecuador, Acting Assistant Secretary of State for Political Military Affairs, Chargé at the U.S. Embassy in Mozambique, and Deputy Chief of Mission at the U.S. Embassy in Brazil. Currently, he is a Nonresident Senior Adviser with the Americas Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies and serves on several boards. Gentlemen, welcome to the General and the Ambassador, and thank you for joining us in our series. Before we jump into the substance of the U.S.-Brazil security relationship, I wanted to ask about your own relationship. I gather you work together in other places such as Ecuador. What can you share with our listeners about the origins of your special military diplomatic partnership?

 Amb. Chapman: [00:02:35] Well, Deborah, first of all, it is such a privilege to be with you on this important series of broadcasts that you are putting together to highlight for people the important relationship which ambassadors and military leaders have. It's absolutely crucial for promoting our national security interests overseas. And I was very fortunate to get to work with Admiral Craig Faller, not only in Brazil, but as you said, first in Ecuador. And so soon upon his swimming command, it came down to Ecuador for a very important visit and to nurture what had been basically a moribund relationship due to a series of of difficult political reasons. But he also brought with him his wife, Martha. And we were very fortunate to host a wonderful reception at our home for Craig and Martha. And you had 50 to 60 military leaders there getting to know one another. And Martha came up to me and said, would you mind or would you permit me to sing a song? I said, Well, I think that's a wonderful idea. And she sang the song. "You've Got a Friend," one of my favorites from James Taylor. I even joined in in the course and to the amazement of the Ecuadorian military elite, we sang together and it just established such a warmth that it's something that carried on in our relationship for several years after.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:04:01] What a great story.

Admiral Faller: [00:04:05] Remember Todd, Ambassador Chapman, as he's walking up to our plane on a runway with his big signature hats that he liked to wear and smile is even bigger than his hat. And in the lead up to our visit, just a lot of back and forth dialogue about what we wanted to accomplish, how we wanted to get things done. Todd just took it to another level, and I think when my wife and I talked about her singing, I said, Well, let's see what the mood was. Well, Ambassador Chapman set that mood of trust and relationships, and those relationships matter. And nothing's better than the tight knit relationships that our ambassadors, and particularly Todd, has forged and forged with me that get so much done when it transcends just the formalities to a true friendship built on mutual respect. And we we developed that. It was a highlight of my entire three years at United States Southern Command.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:05:08] Well, we're going to dive into how you continued this relationship in Brazil, but I want to do a little intro for our listeners. The U.S.-Brazil relationship has seen its ups and downs over the years. There were years of collaboration, such as during World War Two, when Brazil was the only Latin American country to deploy forces in Europe. And in the nineties, after the end of the Cold War. But there have been other periods where Brazil has sought its own leadership role in foreign affairs and has taken positions that were not in line with U.S. interests. As a recent example, Brazil criticized the use of sanctions against Russia for invading Ukraine and opposed or abstained from U.S. backed efforts to expel Russia from certain international organizations. So, Admiral Faller, Ambassador Chapman, by coincidence or luck, you worked together in Brazil during a period of rapprochement between the United States and Brazil, driven in part by the relationship between President Trump and President Bolsonaro. The U.S. designated Brazil as a major non-NATO ally, and both countries concluded what is called a protocol on trade rules and transparency. So my first question is how much of this rapprochement was due to the personalities of both heads of state and how much of it was driven by other elements?

Amb. Chapman: [00:06:31] Deborah, it truly was a phenomenal time to be heading up the relationship between Brazil and the United States because of exactly what you pointed to a unique relationship between the Brazilian and US presidents. I first moved to Brazil when I was 11 years old in 1974. I've spent 13 years of my life in Brazil, and I've seen the ups and downs in that relationship. And you have to recall that before President Bolsonaro, you had 16 years of government considered left of center and not always in line with US interests globally. So upon the election of President Bolsonaro, it was very quickly established that both presidents had a a similar worldview. They had common interests, and they communicated that to their teams. And so I wouldn't say so much it was their personal relationship, because President Bolsonaro has extremely limited English and their bios could not be more different. So I believe it was their their political approaches and their desire to bring together two countries that are the leading democracies of the Western Hemisphere closer together to take advantage of new opportunities. So it clearly was a golden moment to advance a very important national interest for both countries.

Admiral Faller: [00:07:55] I think that that relationship and that worldview that each leader brought open the door, but the frame of that door and the foundation of that relationship has been set with the strong institutional values that I see in the Brazilian military. And I think Ambassador Chapman would share he saw in the professional institutions and and institutions matter, and those professional institutions stay constant over time. That relationship allowed us to get more things done because of those bonds of institutional alignment fundamentally grounded in democracy, I would say. So it was a it was a wonderful time to see things that have been in work for many years and come to fruition and move forward. 

Amb. McCarthy: [00:08:44] I was wondering if you could share with us a little bit how you each worked with your teams to deepen the relationship and get those agreements that I mentioned because they're not easy to achieve?

Amb. Chapman: [00:08:54] Well, what I would say, Deborah, is, first of all, it is very much a team effort. And we each had dozens of people working on the US Brazil military partnership. And what was so exciting going from Ecuador, where we were able to together restart the military security partnership between Ecuador and the United States that had been severed by one of the previous Ecuadorian presidents here. We were building already on this institutional strength that Craig alluded to. And this is this is such an important point, is that while the political leaders change over time, and especially within military institutions, the captains become lieutenant generals, lieutenant general become Four-Star Generals. They work their way up over time. And within the Brazilian military, the US military is held in the highest regard. And so once we had a political greenlight to go forward on a number of things that both sides have wanted for some time, like a technology safeguards agreements that allowed us to gain access to the Alcantara lunch for. In Northern Brazil or other partnerships that we're able to to advance. Then we were just off to the races and we knew that we had to sprint. And so Craig and I developed the building on our previous relationship. We let our teams know that we had high expectations. We would have conversations that others would listen in on and could tell that we were serious. And then we would have these infamous I call them infamous emails where we would send each other responses on a to do list of 20 to 25 items that would keep our teams on track on all of the various things that we had going. So it was truly an exciting time. Multiple achievements and our teams did a wonderful job advancing the ball down the road. 

Admiral Faller: [00:10:56] We recognized that the two largest democracies in the hemisphere, they ought to matter and that ought to be at the top of the list of our priorities. And so making this a daily to do for our staffs was important. And I think that alignment by phone calls, Tanbergs, we were stymied a little bit on visits because of pandemic. But the email exchanges at all levels of classification helped keep our teams moving forward. And it helped us overcome pockets of bureaucratic inertia, both within Brazil and within the United States. Frankly, when there were people that maybe weren't going to move as fast as Todd and I wanted to move, and Todd and I are both deadly serious about getting things done. That's how you move relationships forward by accomplishing things helps build trust with our teams and the Brazilians. And that was really key, was that. Back and forth between us.

Amb. Chapman: [00:11:58] Greg raises a very good point. If sometimes you do run into bureaucratic resistance within our own government because people will say things like, Well, we tried that before and it never worked, or the Brazilians will never go for that, or we could never get that across the line. And this is when you have to take advantage of the new day in the relationship, taking cues from our presidents and say, No, we need to overcome this barrier. And I think it's that kind of dogged persistence that results in many concrete deliverables that advance our national security.

 Amb. McCarthy: [00:12:34] Well, you worked together in Brazil during a difficult time because of the COVID pandemic, and COVID really hit Brazil hard. The country had over 30 million cases and one of the highest mortality rates in the world. And although President Bolsonaro opposed most of the public health measures to fight the pandemic, the country managed to get 77% of its population vaccinated. My question is, is how did COVID affect your respective operations and your teams?

 Amb. Chapman: [00:13:07] Well, I arrived on end of March of 2020 at a time when there had been 114 deaths due to COVID in Brazil. And by the time I left, there were over 600,000 deaths. And so clearly the COVID pandemic influenced everything that we did. I went into the embassy about once every two weeks. Everything was remote. I did not meet 95% of the people that worked at my embassy and throughout the consulate. We were completely a virtual operation. But, you know, often your absence, ambassador, what are your top three priorities? But mine changed. It became the health of my staff and families, my American citizens, and cooperating in the public health of Brazil. And so it became very much a health focused mission. And so that that clearly impacted everything that we did. But we also had to overcome misconceptions. And that is that, yes, Brazil suffered greatly. But when you look at the overall impact, they were not the highest in terms of deaths per million that belonged to Peru. And the next 12 and I just checked the statistics, the next 12 are all in Europe. And so Brazil ranks 13th in terms of deaths per million comparable to Poland, Chile and the USA.

 Amb. Chapman: [00:14:34] And so it wasn't so much that President Bolsonaro was was arguing against the public health measures. He was questioning that. And clearly, as our understanding of the pandemic evolved, we did learn that certain things were more effective than others. But yes, this dominated our bilateral relationship. I'm very proud of how the United States was able to assist not only in providing vaccines, but more importantly, quite frankly, with all the assistance that we provided the public health system now related to the military, we also had very important contributions from SOUTHCOM. We delivered field hospitals, one that was delivered to a northern state of Maranhao, which I picked specifically because we wanted to develop our relationship there. And the Governor of that state was the member and leader of the Communist Party. And imagine the benefit of having US military onsite during the COVID pandemic, the public hospital for a state that is run by a communist. Now, this is just a wonderful way that we demonstrate that we are working in apolitical ways when it comes to public health emergencies. And I was very proud of our military team that did that there and another place throughout the country.

Admiral Faller: [00:15:59] In addition to all the restrictions that COVID put on everyone. Because, like Todd, I changed my priorities to health of our force. There were benefits, though. It forced our teams to think innovatively. It forced our teams to figure out how to to act in a manner that would benefit our partners using tools that we had not fully explored. And we utilize the humanitarian assistance authorities that we have, which are as a way of saying permissions that were granted as a combatant commander and as an embassy to do do certain things to move out very quickly. And we were recipients of some extra money that was part of the COVID response in the US, $70 million across the hemisphere. And a significant portion of that went to Brazil as our largest partner, and Brazilians welcomed it. We didn't. I think perhaps do as much as we could have to put this out in the public space in a way that would have benefited us. Brand But it was certainly known well, with the Brazilian people that benefited from it, and it built some lasting trust with the institution. So we came out of that stronger, really did particularly the Chief of Defense, General Raul Botelho and I would we would talk frequently, WhatsApp or phone or FaceTime about how we could help and what we were going to do going forward.

 Admiral Faller: [00:17:34] In the midst of all that, the Brazilians still sent a company of airborne troops to the US to train at our joint training center in the middle of the pandemic, something that had been in works for, for for two years. And that resulted in the interoperability. This is at Fort Polk, Louisiana. It is our toughest airborne training. The Minister of Defense came, we said all the protocols. No one got COVID. Brazilians sent their brand new Embraer. The very proud of that they built. It's about equivalent to one of our our US transport planes, a C-130, which is a very common US transport plane. And the Brazilians performed spectacularly. I was there for the nighttime jump. I did not jump out of a perfectly good aircraft, but I did watch the Brazilians and they really, really did a great job with the US in that partner training. 

Amb. McCarthy: [00:18:29] Well, during your time there were many visits and exchanges during COVID. I can't help but ask the following. When President Bolsonaro visited with President Trump at Mar-a-Lago, 22 members of his staff contracted COVID. What was the reaction in Brazil and how did you factor this into the messaging on the results of that meeting?

Admiral Faller: [00:18:51] First, they visited SOUTHCOM headquarters for 4 hours on a Sunday morning as part of that visit, and this was in early March when we still thought COVID was a distant problem. We had no testing, no protocols in place, had no instances of COVID positive at our headquarters, and we really hadn't reacted to it. I think Ambassador was just getting off the airplane on the other end down and in Brazil. And so they had 96 people come to our headquarters on a Sunday morning. We signed a technical agreement, had some really great exchanges. He brought about a third of his cabinet, the President. My wife's family's from Rio, so she came. It was really neat to see the President Bolsonaro's face light up when he knew that there was this family connection between Admiral Faller and and Brazil told him that on honeymoon there that also made a big hit. But about maybe 10 hours after they left, we started getting these hey, there's certain members of the delegation that were positive, all of which we had been. Handshaking with and in close proximity to not a single person. This is just luck. Not a single person in my headquarters got got covered, but I had 100 I'm sorry, there was 66 members of Brazilian delegation.

Admiral Faller: [00:20:14] I had 100 people in supporting that. So of 100 of us, including me, spent the next couple of weeks in isolation as we sort of tourist, but nobody got their incubation period was a little longer and that manifests itself later in the week at Mar-A-Lago. I guess it's sort of ushered in the whole COVID pandemic for us here at our headquarters and really at the beginning in the United States. But the positive of it was the relationships that we were cemented. I'll always remember that some great pictures of myself and President Bolsonaro that I later had the chance to show President Trump when he visited. A few months later, he said, "Hey, that's you, Admiral and President Bolsonaro." "Yes, yes, President Trump." He said, "How do you know him?" I said, "Well, we're they are our best partner. And he was here." He goes, "Oh, that's right. How did that go?" I said, "Great, we need to do more with Brazil, Mr. President." And President Trump agreed with me.

Amb. Chapman: [00:21:10] And Deborah as as Craig was receiving them on that Sunday. That night they flew up to Washington. And I had dinner that on Monday night with members of the team, the foreign minister and others who I had known previously, and this was before they were diagnosed as being COVID positive. And so like Craig, I got a two week stay and isolation in my hotel right before I went to Brazil. It actually delayed my departure a little bit. But so yeah, these these things have personal consequences, no doubt about it.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:21:44] My goodness. I'm glad we're getting the back story on that one. Well, I wanted to ask more broadly, we have as a country a number of diplomatic, military and development tools that we use to advance our interests across the globe. We've cited some instances of assistance we've given to Brazil and the assistance during COVID. What other security assistance does the U.S. provide Brazil, and how does this help advance our interests in the region? 

Amb. Chapman: [00:22:17] There are a number of tools that we are using in Brazil, but we also deploy these worldwide everything from extensive training opportunities which are so important. There's nothing valued more than when the United States says, we're happy to take some of your cadets to come to the US Naval Academy or to West Point. So these are these are the long term investments that we are constantly making with Brazil that are that are extremely important. The exercises, like Craig mentioned, a major exercise in Louisiana during COVID builds interoperability, training opportunities and the building of those relationships, something the military does so well. And I say this as a diplomat. And, Deborah, I think you're going to be able to relate to this, is they have such a focus on key leader engagements. Now, the good old colleagues that they have such a commitment to the building of long term relationships with their military colleagues from other countries, that we benefit from that down the line. Again, when the lieutenants become generals or admirals, we benefit so much because of the investments that were made 20 years ago. Those kinds of things are extremely important. But other specific things that we do with the Brazilian military, we have a defense industry dialogue because of the extensive military machinery and technology that's created in Brazil. Greg mentioned the the large airplanes produced by Embraer. There's also other kinds of equipment that Brazil's very good at. Back in 2016, we established a defense industrial dialogue. These kinds of efforts all bring our militaries closer together. And by doing so, we're building the national security of the United States of Brazil and to have a stronger hemisphere. And this is what it's about as a person that's invested a lot of time in Brazil, I'm always astounded how people do not understand that Brazil is the most important military power, the most important economic power, and the most important global influencer in all of Latin America. And that is why I believe it continues to demand and require a continued investment in strengthening the partnership, not backing away from.

Admiral Faller: [00:24:47] The education is so key. Todd mentioned that the exchanges that go on with this international military education training program I met build long term friendships. It's a two way street. We send our officers to Brazilian schools as well, and that needs to increase, if not double in size. I would say that's really where we gain that long term positional relationship to the advantages that are so necessary in the competitive world we're in. Also, the exercise program. So we take education, which is foundation and people really want to come to US schools. That's one of the strengths of our nation and it's a particular strength of military. So think Naval War College, Army War College and Carlyle. Where we have also Brazilian instructors that are doing great work. I also spoke at the Superior Work College in Rio de Janeiro, which is considered one of the foremost colleges in the world. And I attended the the 75th anniversary celebration of that war college, which is a big deal. Brazil hosted during my time unitas. It's a great name for an exercise means unity. It's our longest serving maritime exercise, a naval exercise. So think navies and Marines in the world for the United States. So that says a lot that we have that working for us in Latin America and the Caribbean. And Brazil hosted it. They did a fantastic job standing on their deck of their flagship, but just standing there and listening to the dialogue and the talks between our two nations about the importance of working together and cooperation and everything from military assistance to training together to prevent the next war just makes you proud to know where we have come and how much more we can go forward with this historical relationship. 

Amb. Chapman: [00:26:37] Deborah, let me just add one other thing that I failed to mention, which is, of course, Brazil is the major power of the South Atlantic, an area that hasn't often gotten a lot of attention. But clearly there are malevolent actors who are wishing to encroach in the South Atlantic. And so what an advantage it is to us to have a strong partnership with the strongest military presence in the South Atlantic, which is Brazil. They have a submarine fleet. I had the privilege of taking President Bolsonaro on a tour of our own USS Vermont, the most modern nuclear propulsion submarine that we produce. And that kind of partnership in the South Atlantic is extremely important as we consider new threats from new players that are trying to get active in the region.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:27:28] Well, I wanted to shift a little bit to how Brazil has operated in the international context. During your time, the Bolsonaro administration, in in a shift from past Brazilian policy, moved to coordinate more with the US regionally and at the UN. I noted that in November 2019 it became the first country in over two decades to vote against the annual widely supported resolution at the UN, which condemns the U.S. embargo of Cuba. So how did you leverage this shift to benefit the United States diplomatically and militarily? And did the rest of the Bolsonaro government go along with this shift, or were there pockets of resistance? 

Amb. Chapman: [00:28:13] Clearly, Deborah, this was a an important shift in the way Brazil chose to conduct its foreign policy. Again, I've worked with Itamaraty, the name for the foreign ministry for many, many years. And Brazil traditionally chooses to try and find the middle way. They try to be friends with all sides. And that is fine. That's that's a friendly way to approach the world. But at times, it did lead to frustration in the past where the US would like to see Brazil more decidedly aligned with US and Western interests. And under President Bolsonaro, there was certainly a shift and a shift in our direction as we sought to advance certain issues around the world. And that was very welcome. And yes, we were able to take advantage of this new openness to coordinate on many issues, not just on democracy and liberty in the Western Hemisphere, but on matters in the United Nations, on matters in relation to technology, on matters related to related to food security across the board. It was a tremendously productive time where I would get on a call almost every two or three weeks with the the ambassador of Brazil in the United States who is still here, Mr. Forcer and amazing diplomat. And we would have agendas that would go on to 40 or 50 items that we were just checking. Are we are we moving on this? We're moving on that. So, yes, it was an unprecedented kind of time of cooperation, which was good for the United States, which was good for Brazil. And I hope that one day we'll be able to resume that level of close cooperation.

 Admiral Faller: [00:30:01] So that at the military level as well, the foundation was always strong. This enabled us to grow that on top of that foundation. One example was expansion of our intelligence sharing. Another example was expansion of our personnel exchanges. Todd mentioned students, but also instructors at various different colleges. We within a six month period, we went from IDEA, the chief of Defense, General Botelho and myself and Todd of placing a two star general into my headquarters as part of the staff, not just an exchange officer, but embedded with actual staff duties to doing that. And we've actually reconfigured the headquarters, redesigned it, and that officer is the deputy for all our plans and policies as I speak. And we'll be relieved by another talented officer from Brazil. The speed with which we were able to do this was made possible by the alignment of values. But the leadership alignment at the top was a big deal to making that happen.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:31:07] I note that Brazil's cooperation did not extend to all issues. China considers Brazil one of its strongest allies in the region. It takes about 30% of all Brazilian exports. And Brazil is the recipient of over half of Chinese investment in South America. During your time, the US pushed for Brazil to exclude the Chinese company Huawei from its 5G infrastructure. Brazil resisted in the end only restricted, only restricted Huawei's ability to get on the government systems. And I know, Admiral, you've spoken a lot about PRC's intent, influence and activities in the hemisphere. In one interview, you noted that the PRC has upped its mil to mil game, offering extensive military education opportunities, cyber engineering scholarships and annual no strings attached security cooperation packages that in many cases far exceed the value of similar programs offered by Western partners, including the United States. So Craig, let me start with you. What did you note in terms of the PRC's mil to mil engagement with Brazil?

Admiral Faller: [00:32:24] It start with a sort of the principles with which we operated. And I say we because I think a military team across all the combatant commands and I was one of six regional combatant commanders. So they have folks that deal with all parts of the world really try to approach things from a standpoint of mutual respect. So I didn't go in and ask my partners to take sides here very. It would just be detrimental to building trust and relationships, especially when the Brazilians would quickly point out that, and rightly so, that China is the number one trading partner of the United States as well. So how do we reconcile that? So we start with what we agree on. We're like minded democracies. We value human rights, respect for the rule of law, legitimacy of our militaries are built on that fundamental principle and and so on. And then we at some point in our conversation, we talk about China. China is none of that. They don't respect human rights, rule of law. And the US we're as imperfect as anybody, but we admit our mistakes and we we work hard for accountability. And I found that to be the same of my Brazilian counterparts. And so with that basis, no one truly wants to develop my experience. And I say no one, my partners that I work with in the hemisphere and Brazil is in that group truly wants to develop a lasting security relationship with the PRC.

 Admiral Faller: [00:33:52] They want to be partners with the US and we want to partner with them and we work that forward and we work it very, very hard. And so in private, they'll be very open about sharing what China's approaching them with. And education was one of the bigger areas. I spoke to a Brazilian officer who was an instructor at our Army War College in Carlisle, who had attended the Portuguese version of that training in China. And he said they've made every effort to absolutely duplicate our levels of instruction in the PRC, with one big exception. They don't trust the exchange students, they being the PRC government, to intermingle with any real PRC officers. They box them all together and it becomes more of a cultural tour with some spoon fed education. So I think there's a vast difference in the quality, and that's what we're hearing. And we'll play to our strengths. We'll keep offering the best military training, education exercises, and the PRC will do what they do. I think folks want to partner us, notwithstanding that there is a big push and they do leverage. Larger countries like Brazil are able to resist the pressure on the middle to middle level. But some of the smaller countries were forced to to give in to the demands and accept some of their military equipment.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:35:15] Well, Todd, can you tell us a little bit more about your team's efforts to have Brazil cut out Huawei?

 Amb. Chapman: [00:35:21] Deborah, before I went to Brazil, I had the good fortune of working as diplomatic advisor to then undersecretary for economic affairs Keith Krach, former CEO of DocuSign, coming from Silicon Valley and very knowledgeable on technological issues. And through his leadership, the State Department launched the Clean Network, and this was an effort to put forward a series of principles that alerted our partners to the dangers of cooperating with not just Huawei, but other Chinese technology providers who by law, were required to provide all the information that passed through their systems to the intelligence service of China. That is not exactly a recipe for security. And so we were going around the world and recruiting partners for that. And Under Secretary Krach came to Brazil while I was there in November. And Brazil signed on to be the first partner ascribing to the principles of the clean network, which is essentially we're highlighting the concerns of using this kind of technology in your 5G networks. Now, how this gets played out in terms of regulation is something that happened subsequently. But clearly, we were successful in cooperating with our Brazilian partners and highlighting the concerns to Huawei technology. I was always very active in the press down there. The Chinese ambassador, let's just say, didn't appreciate me that much. I can say that for sure. And Brazilian government felt that they couldn't necessarily ban Huawei from the entire country.

 Amb. Chapman: [00:37:09] But what they did say was, and they said this very openly, is that it would not be permitted for government systems, for the very security concerns that we shared a concern about. And so that is the clearest possible message that you can give to your country, that you do not trust this technology. Now it's up to the telco providers to decide who they want to put into their networks. But the message is clear. If the Brazilian government does not think that Huawei is sufficiently secure for its own systems, how do consumers how do companies, how do pharmaceutical companies that are preparing the next miracle drugs, how would they want all of that information going to China? Obviously they're not. So I think the there there is a partnership there on technology. I believe that we agree in principle exactly how that will play out over the coming years. I can't predict, but I believe Brazil is very conscious of the definite threats that China makes to to to Brazil's future security. And I'm staying on this issue. I'm proudly on the advisory board of the Krach Institute for Tech Diplomacy, which he has set up at Purdue University. And we want to continue this mission of highlighting the the dangers of working with China in these technology spaces.

 Amb. McCarthy: [00:38:34] Well, shifting a little bit, I wanted to turn to the issue of democracy and human rights. We have some members of the U.S. Congress who've expressed concerns about the state of democracy and human rights in Brazil. And they point to things such as reports. One report by the Congressional Research Service indicates that, you know, Bolsonaro governs in a populist manner, criticized perceived enemies, including the press, civil society organizations and other branches of government. But there are there are other there are other pieces of literature on this. I wanted to ask during your time, how did these how did these internal political developments and U.S. congressional concerns affect your work in Brazil?

 Admiral Faller: [00:39:22] Can I start with that? There was shortly after, I assume command, one of the first places we visit was Brazil. And then. Again multiple times and. There was never any evidence that I saw, read or heard of the military. And I'll focus specifically on the military. Doing anything other than following their ethical northstar and being professional. So when the military was brought in to to control parts of Rio de Janeiro, they did so with professionalism. And there was some reports in pockets. But all the evidence we saw both what was presented to us by the Brazilians and what our own research and intelligence did in our conversations with Todd is that those institutions that we spoke of early, early on, they stayed the course in terms of doing the right thing and whether there might have been political rhetoric, just like there is in every vibrant democracy we know, including our own, the the the professional institutions and the people did the same thing. They swore an oath like we did. And that's what really struck me, is that they were committed to the core, to their constitution and their values, not to any one leader or a new wave of populist thinking or policy.

 Amb. Chapman: [00:40:52] You know something, Deborah, that always astounds me is that that people question Brazil about some of these issues when they see tension between the branches of power, when you see tensions between the Congress in Brazil, the executive and the Supreme Court, which there's plenty of tension. But I think it's a testimony to the strength of the democracy that these institutions are holding and holding very well, even under tremendous pressure. If you think about the tensions that we're experiencing right here in America, we have members of Congress saying extremely aggressive things about our Supreme Court right now, that if it were being said in another country, they'd probably be questioning the stability of the system. But but this is, I think, a testimony to the strength of a democracy, not indicators of weakness that the institutions hold. And in Brazil, the military, the judiciary, the Congress are they're all involved in various kinds of discussions about where the future of Brazil should lie, but the strength is there. And so when I see some of these headlines questioning what's going to happen in Brazil, I'm projecting forward. It's like, is there tension? Yes. Will the democracy hold? I think we can confidently say yes.

 Admiral Faller: [00:42:19] So I could add during my last visit there, we had a press conference. The embassy wanted me to go out and do a press conference there, not because of COVID. I hadn't been to many senior leader visits, so I had in Brasilia, I had The Full Monty on ten reporters for an hour, and this was central to the conversation, and they came right at me. It wasn't even the fair and balanced question you get asked. It was, we know during your conversations here that clearly you all have talked about how the military intends to. And this would be then they would give an anecdote run counter to the Constitution. And I said no. In fact, the only thing we talked about is how we can foster relationships, move forward professionally and and about our commitment to the Constitution and values. And it was it was great because I just finished all my meetings and I was able to represent the substance of how I felt from three years of engagement and two intense two days of engagement in a manner that really put this theme of professionalism and institutions forward with a Brazilian media. So I think the embassy was okay. I didn't get any calls from Washington. I delivered the message truthfully and forcefully and and happened to represent the values of both Todd and I saw in our teams, in our Brazilian counterparts as well.

 Amb. McCarthy: [00:43:52] Well, to wrap up, I want to ask you one last question, which is what are your thoughts to rising leaders on our diplomatic and in our military side on the need for our senior military and diplomatic leaders to work together? What would you convey to the rising leaders?

 Amb. Chapman: [00:44:14] First of all, Deborah, again, thank you for this tremendous opportunity. And it's so wonderful to do this with Craig, because I do believe that what we're able to accomplish is a result of an intentional pursuit of the relationship. So first thing I would say is that relationships do matter then, and you have to invest early in those relationships because then you get to benefit from that investment over a longer period of time. And so on my way down to South America, I would stop at SOUTHCOM on my way up. You can stop for 4 hours and have a nice conversation and move on, but it's certainly worth investing early on in this relationship. Number two is understanding that this is definitely a partnership, something which many people may not be aware is in the president's letter of instruction to ambassadors. It says very clearly, you're responsible for everything that happens with the executive branch in that country. But there is one exception to that, which is when it comes to your relationship with your regional combatant commander in this case, Craig. And it requires that there's a partnership because if there's ever anything related to military activity that is required, it's clearly the regional combatant commander that's in charge. So you have to be very, very much connected. And then 0.3, I would say and I'm saying this more to my diplomatic colleagues, is there some things that the civilian diplomat can do more effectively with a government than than the admiral or the general? But conversely, there are some messages, some models that our military colleagues can do better. And in and in regions where the military will often have political power or influence that is greater than what we're accustomed to in the United States, that voice becomes even stronger. So this is a partnership. It vitally contributes to our national security. And it's one that I would encourage all of our colleagues at every level, even at the mid level, doesn't have to just happen at the top, even at the mid levels to pursue for the benefit of our national security.

 Admiral Faller: [00:46:33] The highlight of my 38 years of active service was the relationships that I established with our embassies, our ambassadors, our charges, and the things we got done together. It's truly amazing the professionals at State. And when you invest the time to build that relationship beyond the formal one, even more can be accomplished. And I get chills. I get goosebumps just thinking about what we've been able to do and how good I feel about the future, knowing that that core group of professionals is out there working hard every day to advance the interests of the United States. I always treated it as if the ambassador was in charge. Frankly, I know what the letters of instruction said, but we're two or more gathered. Someone must be in, clearly in the lead. And sometimes in Washington I always feel or two or more gathered. Everyone is confused. But when it comes to the tactical level, the ambassadors and the combatant commands, when we are empowered and given the tools to go forward and do our jobs, amazing things happen and are happening around the world with that relationship. It's a highlight and I would just say embrace it and make sure we recognize that and always preserve the authority of the ambassadors to get things done and give them enough tools. Handshakes are great cups to your wonderful receptions and singing, and you've got a friend who also has to put resources to it. And we need to really examine the investments that we put in international military education, training and all sorts of foreign assistance. Those are high rates of return investment. Those dollars matter. They make a difference, and often they don't get treated as if they make a difference when the budget times come around. I'm a believer.

Amb. McCarthy: [00:48:18] Well, thank you for those words and thank you both for a great conversation and for sharing your deep friendship developed in several places and for words of wisdom for those who come behind us. So thank you.

Admiral Faller: [00:48:35] Thank you, Deborah.

 Amb. Chapman: [00:48:37] Thank you, Deborah.